Author Topic: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?  (Read 717 times)

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Offline Hector

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Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« on: 01 February 2018, 19:10:08 »
I'm looking at the changelog and it says undeads have now 70% poison and bleed absorb in all difficulties instead of having resistances against these damage types.. so that makes any kind of RR technically worthless at this point, doesn't it (considering a warlock-illusionist-brigand)?

How in the world am I gonna make a viable DOT build with these damage types if these ****** undead ruin all sorts of approaches?

I've always hated this so called realistic, stupid logic in ARPG games.. they have no flesh, no blood and no veins to carry the toxic effects so they can not be harmed by it.. Yeah, even the God of the Dead (who is also the god of those undeads) himself is not immune to these damage types but somehow these ******s are...

Anyway, do you have some suggestions for a poison + bleed build which is also capable of dealing with the undead? I've read some ideas from google search about making a magician and use elemental against them but is it reliable? how am I going to sustain my damage in later difficulties with this approach? or is there a better alternative here? Could traps alone be used against them if I make a brigand and buff them with AOTH and COTH?

 
« Last Edit: 01 February 2018, 19:14:13 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #1 on: 01 February 2018, 22:17:55 »
holla Hector.. just want to say i finally re-watched Troy the other day.. there are differences in Iliad but i still liked the film.. the fight between Hector and Ajax was a draw in Iliad but i think i like it more that Hector killed him :) ..  when Hector killed Patroclus i was hoping that Hector would get Achilles' armor like in Iliad.. I mean Achilles' mother giving Achilles new armor would be epic.. i was hoping to see Achilles shield.. but i also knew they wouldn't show that because they would have to include the gods (specifically Hephaestus)

poison and bleed.. yes that could work but you'd have to support it with other types of damage.. my sorcerer, if you haven't seen it yet, deals poison and bleed but also deals elemental.. it's focused on throwing knife (skill).. i don't know the magician you saw but if i am to make a magician, I'll make it like my sorcerer

if you haven't seen it yet, I'm too lazy to find the link so just click my sig.. then click my favorite character somewhere at the bottom.. or you can just find it under guidesAE (flying daggers).. i posted a video on my reply to circular's trickster thread

another build i know is warlock ternion although it has no bleed and it's a staff so it's one less item slot
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Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #2 on: 02 February 2018, 22:02:38 »
You re-watched it? For a moment there I thought it was your first time when you said you wished Hector to take Achilles' armor :)

Yeah I was happy too when I saw that brute Ajax fell down :) You know I always liked the changes the movie made cause the original story is not that good IMO.. Of all the parts you talked about, I only didn't know the relationship between the shield and the gods.. Guess I'll have to read about that.. Oh and I wished so bad that archers did arrow Achilles down when he stood before their gates :) I wish I could watch the theatrical cut again since all the sites on the net have the extended cut nowadays..

I saw your post about the build "flying daggers" but coudn't see the video.. anyway I think the build I want to do is not viable at all so I made a Laufey - Ymir (are they the same chacarter?) type hero instead.. If you have a suggestion about a "frostgiant" build, I'm all ears  :) it can be a both caster and warrior type or just caster I don't know.. 
« Last Edit: 02 February 2018, 22:10:56 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #3 on: 02 February 2018, 22:15:50 »
i watched it years before but forgot some parts.. Iliad is good but there are some meh parts.. definitely read about the shield.. actually if you want to know the real reason why Helen went with Paris, read about the wedding of Thetis and Peleus (Achilles parents).. apple of discord.. the story happened before the events of Iliad

here for the video



frostgiant build like cold? maybe this:

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=280.0
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Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #4 on: 02 February 2018, 22:35:32 »
Thank you botebote.. both for the video and the link..

I already have a thunderer though she is using a throwing weapon without any caster type damage skill.. I don't know if making a thunderer for a second time would be boring or not even when following a different path.. But a thane sounds interesting enough..

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #5 on: 02 February 2018, 23:02:31 »
oh i thought you were looking for a poison + bleed build.. mine is a sorcerer though not thunderer

edit: ah the iceshard build
« Last Edit: 02 February 2018, 23:04:50 by botebote77 »
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Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #6 on: 03 February 2018, 16:26:01 »
Yeah:)

What do you think about the "-100 physical resistance" feature on the new freezing blast? would it be worth it to become a melee thane and go with this route? On one hand, enemies absorb 66% of incoming damage, on the other they take 100% more physical.. I'm not sure if it is worth the effort considering the later difficulties..

Or maybe I should totally respec my already in Epic Thunderer and make her a cold focused melee fighter but there is only one dual wield proc in this build.. As always, I'm clueless as ****..

@Laionidas also seemed to consider something similar in his thread https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=276.0 but I don't know what he decided on in the end..

What was that skeleton hero's name who appears in Act I normal? Frost Marrow?? I envy that SOB because he looks exactly the character that I wish to be.. save for the stupid race and appearance..
« Last Edit: 03 February 2018, 17:07:17 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #7 on: 03 February 2018, 23:47:48 »
i don't think that's how it works.. damage absorption applies after armor and resists.. and the damage absorption from freezing blast is 70%.. it cannot be reduced by anything

so for example you deal 1000 damage after it is reduced by armor, and the monster you are attacking has 20% physical resist, the mechanics would be:

resistance of monster = 20% - 100% = -80%
your physical damage = 1000 * 180% = 1800
after damage absorption you deal: 1800 * 30% = 540 physical damage

so you still deal less damage.. if for example the monster has zero physical resist, the damage you deal would be:

resistance of monster = 0% - 100% = -100%
your physical damage = 1000 * 200% = 2000
after damage absorption: 2000 * 30% = 600 physical damage

still less damage.. but let's say my theory is incorrect.. let's say you deal more physical and less elemental.. you then look at other skills of storm and virtually everything boosts elemental, not physical

i think a melee storm could work but you have to play it as a hybrid (except when paired with rune).. so freezing blast for me is still a CC/panic skill and not as a means of dealing more damage

finally there's the TQ targeting.. freezing blast is easiest to use if you bind it to RMB.. but if I'm playing a melee storm, there's no way i would choose it over war wind, phantom strike, thunder strike, etc as my right click

so my advice to you is to play it anyway because it sounds fun  8)

ps: just don't forget about squall and spell breaker

edit: after thinking it through, i really don't see how it would result in more damage.. because you deal x2 damage, but you take away more than half of the total afterwards
« Last Edit: 04 February 2018, 03:45:49 by botebote77 »
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Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #8 on: 05 February 2018, 01:20:58 »
This is a post that surely deserves a 5 star  :)

I didn't know the order of damage calculation so it is good to know.. but as you said it yourself, no matter which perspective we use, it does not seem to have any additional benefit other than CC..

In my game (1.52), the skill description reads as 66% damage absorption but it certainly doesn't matter at this point I guess..

About Squall and Spellbreaker.. there is no debate there :) but it is really annoying to hit some moving single targets with shards (with level 8 torrent).. it feels like all of them deliberately misses that one specific enemy almost in every group encounters.. casting speed is also at 222% so I don't think speed can be the problem here.. If it worked like Amazon's "multiple shot" skill in Diablo II LOD, it would have been a much better and easier skill to use.. 

Anyways, thank you for your ideas and great support botebote.. I really appreciate it..
« Last Edit: 05 February 2018, 01:24:09 by Hector »

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #9 on: 28 February 2018, 08:50:27 »
Any classes that includes Rogue could automatically deal some amount of poison and bleed damage, but I guess what you want is a build that at least mainly focus on poison and bleed, if not purely.
Although bleeding and poison now both benefit from dex, I don't think you can focus on both of them at the same time. I don't think you can find a way to increase base damage, damage multiplier for poison and bleed at the same time. You can only focus on one type and the other is a mere supplement. Plus both of them have problem to deal with undead and construct, so a third damage type may be necessary.
I am working on bleeding + pierce damage Brigand, theory crafting completed, character is already in legendary, just missing some items to complete it. I'll update on if it is viable.
For poison damage my best idea now is Rogue+Rune. I'm not sure whether I should go elemental + poison or physical + poison. Both have pros and cons and either require one specific weapon to work: Gorgon's Edge. It's still under theorotical crafting.

Offline Tauceti

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #10 on: 14 April 2018, 14:21:50 »
I am working on bleeding + pierce damage Brigand, theory crafting completed, character is already in legendary, just missing some items to complete it. I'll update on if it is viable.
For poison damage my best idea now is Rogue+Rune. I'm not sure whether I should go elemental + poison or physical + poison. Both have pros and cons and either require one specific weapon to work: Gorgon's Edge. It's still under theorotical crafting.

Hey @tholuneve , what's about your progress with your brigand and your trickster ? I am interested in your feedback about issues and solutions with poison/bleed builds. New gear from TQ AER is really appealing, it's like an invitation card for these builds with all these defiled armor, gorgon's edge, headhunter's pride and others items. But i really wonders if it can handle in legendary. Your feedback is appreciated  ;)

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #11 on: 14 April 2018, 22:47:40 »
Tauceti, i don't know if you really want a poison and bleed build brigand but traps are still good in legendary.. a trapper brigand shouldn't be too far off from my illusionist.. i use calculated strike, a brigand has marksmanship

ok my findings, but you probably know about this already: poison/bleed is good against beasts/beastmen.. useless against undeads/constructs
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Offline Tauceti

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #12 on: 16 April 2018, 20:47:40 »
Yes a trapper is still robust in legendary, i leveled one too in pre-AE. My question was not on the class Brigand, but about the choices (skill/gear) made by a player who wants to level a poison/bleed build, whatever class. Some difficult issues should appear.