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Titan Quest - Anniversary Edition/Ragnarök => Anniversary Edition - General discussion => Topic started by: Hector on 01 February 2018, 19:10:08

Title: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 01 February 2018, 19:10:08
I'm looking at the changelog and it says undeads have now 70% poison and bleed absorb in all difficulties instead of having resistances against these damage types.. so that makes any kind of RR technically worthless at this point, doesn't it (considering a warlock-illusionist-brigand)?

How in the world am I gonna make a viable DOT build with these damage types if these ****** undead ruin all sorts of approaches?

I've always hated this so called realistic, stupid logic in ARPG games.. they have no flesh, no blood and no veins to carry the toxic effects so they can not be harmed by it.. Yeah, even the God of the Dead (who is also the god of those undeads) himself is not immune to these damage types but somehow these ******s are...

Anyway, do you have some suggestions for a poison + bleed build which is also capable of dealing with the undead? I've read some ideas from google search about making a magician and use elemental against them but is it reliable? how am I going to sustain my damage in later difficulties with this approach? or is there a better alternative here? Could traps alone be used against them if I make a brigand and buff them with AOTH and COTH?

 
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 01 February 2018, 22:17:55
holla Hector.. just want to say i finally re-watched Troy the other day.. there are differences in Iliad but i still liked the film.. the fight between Hector and Ajax was a draw in Iliad but i think i like it more that Hector killed him :) ..  when Hector killed Patroclus i was hoping that Hector would get Achilles' armor like in Iliad.. I mean Achilles' mother giving Achilles new armor would be epic.. i was hoping to see Achilles shield.. but i also knew they wouldn't show that because they would have to include the gods (specifically Hephaestus)

poison and bleed.. yes that could work but you'd have to support it with other types of damage.. my sorcerer, if you haven't seen it yet, deals poison and bleed but also deals elemental.. it's focused on throwing knife (skill).. i don't know the magician you saw but if i am to make a magician, I'll make it like my sorcerer

if you haven't seen it yet, I'm too lazy to find the link so just click my sig.. then click my favorite character somewhere at the bottom.. or you can just find it under guidesAE (flying daggers).. i posted a video on my reply to circular's trickster thread

another build i know is warlock ternion although it has no bleed and it's a staff so it's one less item slot
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 02 February 2018, 22:02:38
You re-watched it? For a moment there I thought it was your first time when you said you wished Hector to take Achilles' armor :)

Yeah I was happy too when I saw that brute Ajax fell down :) You know I always liked the changes the movie made cause the original story is not that good IMO.. Of all the parts you talked about, I only didn't know the relationship between the shield and the gods.. Guess I'll have to read about that.. Oh and I wished so bad that archers did arrow Achilles down when he stood before their gates :) I wish I could watch the theatrical cut again since all the sites on the net have the extended cut nowadays..

I saw your post about the build "flying daggers" but coudn't see the video.. anyway I think the build I want to do is not viable at all so I made a Laufey - Ymir (are they the same chacarter?) type hero instead.. If you have a suggestion about a "frostgiant" build, I'm all ears  :) it can be a both caster and warrior type or just caster I don't know.. 
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 02 February 2018, 22:15:50
i watched it years before but forgot some parts.. Iliad is good but there are some meh parts.. definitely read about the shield.. actually if you want to know the real reason why Helen went with Paris, read about the wedding of Thetis and Peleus (Achilles parents).. apple of discord.. the story happened before the events of Iliad

here for the video

https://youtu.be/5wV3mvWKepo

frostgiant build like cold? maybe this:

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=280.0
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 02 February 2018, 22:35:32
Thank you botebote.. both for the video and the link..

I already have a thunderer though she is using a throwing weapon without any caster type damage skill.. I don't know if making a thunderer for a second time would be boring or not even when following a different path.. But a thane sounds interesting enough..
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 02 February 2018, 23:02:31
oh i thought you were looking for a poison + bleed build.. mine is a sorcerer though not thunderer

edit: ah the iceshard build
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 03 February 2018, 16:26:01
Yeah:)

What do you think about the "-100 physical resistance" feature on the new freezing blast? would it be worth it to become a melee thane and go with this route? On one hand, enemies absorb 66% of incoming damage, on the other they take 100% more physical.. I'm not sure if it is worth the effort considering the later difficulties..

Or maybe I should totally respec my already in Epic Thunderer and make her a cold focused melee fighter but there is only one dual wield proc in this build.. As always, I'm clueless as ****..

@Laionidas also seemed to consider something similar in his thread https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=276.0 but I don't know what he decided on in the end..

What was that skeleton hero's name who appears in Act I normal? Frost Marrow?? I envy that SOB because he looks exactly the character that I wish to be.. save for the stupid race and appearance..
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 03 February 2018, 23:47:48
i don't think that's how it works.. damage absorption applies after armor and resists.. and the damage absorption from freezing blast is 70%.. it cannot be reduced by anything

so for example you deal 1000 damage after it is reduced by armor, and the monster you are attacking has 20% physical resist, the mechanics would be:

resistance of monster = 20% - 100% = -80%
your physical damage = 1000 * 180% = 1800
after damage absorption you deal: 1800 * 30% = 540 physical damage

so you still deal less damage.. if for example the monster has zero physical resist, the damage you deal would be:

resistance of monster = 0% - 100% = -100%
your physical damage = 1000 * 200% = 2000
after damage absorption: 2000 * 30% = 600 physical damage

still less damage.. but let's say my theory is incorrect.. let's say you deal more physical and less elemental.. you then look at other skills of storm and virtually everything boosts elemental, not physical

i think a melee storm could work but you have to play it as a hybrid (except when paired with rune).. so freezing blast for me is still a CC/panic skill and not as a means of dealing more damage

finally there's the TQ targeting.. freezing blast is easiest to use if you bind it to RMB.. but if I'm playing a melee storm, there's no way i would choose it over war wind, phantom strike, thunder strike, etc as my right click

so my advice to you is to play it anyway because it sounds fun  8)

ps: just don't forget about squall and spell breaker

edit: after thinking it through, i really don't see how it would result in more damage.. because you deal x2 damage, but you take away more than half of the total afterwards
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 05 February 2018, 01:20:58
This is a post that surely deserves a 5 star  :)

I didn't know the order of damage calculation so it is good to know.. but as you said it yourself, no matter which perspective we use, it does not seem to have any additional benefit other than CC..

In my game (1.52), the skill description reads as 66% damage absorption but it certainly doesn't matter at this point I guess..

About Squall and Spellbreaker.. there is no debate there :) but it is really annoying to hit some moving single targets with shards (with level 8 torrent).. it feels like all of them deliberately misses that one specific enemy almost in every group encounters.. casting speed is also at 222% so I don't think speed can be the problem here.. If it worked like Amazon's "multiple shot" skill in Diablo II LOD, it would have been a much better and easier skill to use.. 

Anyways, thank you for your ideas and great support botebote.. I really appreciate it..
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: tholuneve on 28 February 2018, 08:50:27
Any classes that includes Rogue could automatically deal some amount of poison and bleed damage, but I guess what you want is a build that at least mainly focus on poison and bleed, if not purely.
Although bleeding and poison now both benefit from dex, I don't think you can focus on both of them at the same time. I don't think you can find a way to increase base damage, damage multiplier for poison and bleed at the same time. You can only focus on one type and the other is a mere supplement. Plus both of them have problem to deal with undead and construct, so a third damage type may be necessary.
I am working on bleeding + pierce damage Brigand, theory crafting completed, character is already in legendary, just missing some items to complete it. I'll update on if it is viable.
For poison damage my best idea now is Rogue+Rune. I'm not sure whether I should go elemental + poison or physical + poison. Both have pros and cons and either require one specific weapon to work: Gorgon's Edge. It's still under theorotical crafting.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Tauceti on 14 April 2018, 14:21:50
I am working on bleeding + pierce damage Brigand, theory crafting completed, character is already in legendary, just missing some items to complete it. I'll update on if it is viable.
For poison damage my best idea now is Rogue+Rune. I'm not sure whether I should go elemental + poison or physical + poison. Both have pros and cons and either require one specific weapon to work: Gorgon's Edge. It's still under theorotical crafting.

Hey @tholuneve , what's about your progress with your brigand and your trickster ? I am interested in your feedback about issues and solutions with poison/bleed builds. New gear from TQ AER is really appealing, it's like an invitation card for these builds with all these defiled armor, gorgon's edge, headhunter's pride and others items. But i really wonders if it can handle in legendary. Your feedback is appreciated  ;)
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 14 April 2018, 22:47:40
Tauceti, i don't know if you really want a poison and bleed build brigand but traps are still good in legendary.. a trapper brigand shouldn't be too far off from my illusionist.. i use calculated strike, a brigand has marksmanship

ok my findings, but you probably know about this already: poison/bleed is good against beasts/beastmen.. useless against undeads/constructs
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Tauceti on 16 April 2018, 20:47:40
Yes a trapper is still robust in legendary, i leveled one too in pre-AE. My question was not on the class Brigand, but about the choices (skill/gear) made by a player who wants to level a poison/bleed build, whatever class. Some difficult issues should appear.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: gasconron on 16 May 2018, 09:46:19
@botebote77 is there a resource/database that list monster/boss stats and resists updated for ragnarok? i'd like to make my own calculations on testing instead of just guess-timating all the time.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: tholuneve on 06 June 2018, 04:02:20
I am working on bleeding + pierce damage Brigand, theory crafting completed, character is already in legendary, just missing some items to complete it. I'll update on if it is viable.
For poison damage my best idea now is Rogue+Rune. I'm not sure whether I should go elemental + poison or physical + poison. Both have pros and cons and either require one specific weapon to work: Gorgon's Edge. It's still under theorotical crafting.

Hey @tholuneve , what's about your progress with your brigand and your trickster ? I am interested in your feedback about issues and solutions with poison/bleed builds. New gear from TQ AER is really appealing, it's like an invitation card for these builds with all these defiled armor, gorgon's edge, headhunter's pride and others items. But i really wonders if it can handle in legendary. Your feedback is appreciated  ;)
OK my bleed + pierce knife thrower Brigand is in Legendary A2 now. Please note he is fully geared including items that can only be found in Legendary A5. It's clear speed for non-undead monsters is really great. Most minions require only Study Pray and a single hit from knifes, then I can walk away and watch them bleed to death. Bosses...I killed Hydra in 5 seconds, that is totally not bad.
However, Undead monsters are really annoying and hard to kill with this build. Bleeding is totally useless on Undead, and the pierce damage is not as high is I expected. Although with all the cc from envenom weapon they are equally hard to kill me, I am still not satisfied with current situation. I'm working on solution to deal with Undead now.
Oh and regarding constructs/devices, they are not a problem at all, just toss Study Pray and all fine. Talos survived less than 3 seconds, as a reference.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 06 June 2018, 16:22:50
It looks like this build type will always remain as an utopia, at least in my mind it will..

But I really would like to get some detailed info about this "rune-rogue" approach before throwing away all the hope.. Is it still under theorotical crafting? :)
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: botebote77 on 09 June 2018, 07:05:16
@botebote77 is there a resource/database that list monster/boss stats and resists updated for ragnarok? i'd like to make my own calculations on testing instead of just guess-timating all the time.
for some reason i did not receive an email notification of this mention

but nope sorry.. don't know these kinds of things.. maybe @Vio or @koderkrazy knows
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: koderkrazy on 10 June 2018, 04:31:19
@botebote77 is there a resource/database that list monster/boss stats and resists updated for ragnarok? i'd like to make my own calculations on testing instead of just guess-timating all the time.
for some reason i did not receive an email notification of this mention

but nope sorry.. don't know these kinds of things.. maybe @Vio or @koderkrazy knows

Since Hector's is unhappy with undead here are the stats from database for infamous undead Toxeus:
(https://image.ibb.co/bFrsF8/Toxy_Health.jpg)(https://image.ibb.co/fCV8oT/Toxy_Resist.jpg)
But these are raw stats in database, and not actual which you get when you face the monster.

As per my knowledge, following modifiers gets applied before you see the actual monster in game:
1) Monster difficulty level gets applied basted on specific area in the act where the monster was spawned.
For this look for proxy pool tables for each area. Xmax mod modifies these tables to make more monsters   :P
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
3) Finally they randomize numbers by some percentage. So even if you face same monster at same place, same level he'll have different health(energy, dex, str etc) each time. But I don't know if they randomize resistances or not.

I can give you list of all stats(which are there in 1.56 database.arz) for every monster in a single csv text file. Csv could be imported in Excel to analyze.

If someone help me with actual calculations like how they multiply difficulty level to raw stats, I'll generate final stats for all creatures in the game.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: Hector on 10 June 2018, 23:48:43
koderkrazy, thank you so much for this informative post.. So this shows us that the SOB has not only 70% absorb, but also an additional 50% resistance under his belt..great O:-)

Speaking of difficulty change based on player level, this sounds rather interesting.. I haven't spotted any spike on their difficulty when killing them with over-leveled chars. I mean by this logic, an epic/legendary char facing against normal toxeus should still expect some challenge, doesn't he?.. Maybe its too little that we don't notice it?..

Can you provide some detailed info on this?   
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: tholuneve on 11 June 2018, 05:34:12

2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.

I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?

Finally they randomize numbers by some percentage. So even if you face same monster at same place, same level he'll have different health(energy, dex, str etc) each time. But I don't know if they randomize resistances or not.
I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: koderkrazy on 11 June 2018, 05:50:05
I haven't spotted any spike on their difficulty when killing them with over-leveled chars. I mean by this logic, an epic/legendary char facing against normal toxeus should still expect some challenge, doesn't he?.. Maybe its too little that we don't notice it?..

Can you provide some detailed info on this?
Game difficulty level affects more than character level. That is why enemies get tougher in epic and legendary.

You are right about the character level, the effect is less so you don't notice extra one or two hits to kill the monster. At higher levels we start dealing lot of damage and so many types of damages(auras, damage over time etc) so it is hard to notice.
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: koderkrazy on 11 June 2018, 06:18:57
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?
I believe these are the equations we are talking about.
(https://image.ibb.co/bCY72o/difficulty_Levels_Proxy.jpg)
I haven't figured out yet how these get multiplied to monster stats. So hard to give exact variations. We don't see exact monster health anywhere so it's hard to investigate after these equations.

I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
I am aware that they have several variations.
But they do randomize some stats. If you could debug Game.GAME::Player::OnCreatureDeath method from game.dll and try killing same monster multiple times, you'll see different health and energy each time.
I killed legendary Typhon 3 times with debugging on, and I got following health and energy.
First kill     HP: 124,352 energy: 28,620
Second kill HP: 148,868 energy: 30,528
Third kill    HP: 139,031 energy: 29,574

They have taken utmost care not to display monster health. Even in save files you don't get exact health of the greatest monster killed...
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: tholuneve on 11 June 2018, 08:02:42
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?
I believe these are the equations we are talking about.
(https://image.ibb.co/bCY72o/difficulty_Levels_Proxy.jpg)
I haven't figured out yet how these get multiplied to monster stats. So hard to give exact variations. We don't see exact monster health anywhere so it's hard to investigate after these equations.

I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
I am aware that they have several variations.
But they do randomize some stats. If you could debug Game.GAME::Player::OnCreatureDeath method from game.dll and try killing same monster multiple times, you'll see different health and energy each time.
I killed legendary Typhon 3 times with debugging on, and I got following health and energy.
First kill     HP: 124,352 energy: 28,620
Second kill HP: 148,868 energy: 30,528
Third kill    HP: 139,031 energy: 29,574

They have taken utmost care not to display monster health. Even in save files you don't get exact health of the greatest monster killed...
That's interesting.
Provided that you mentioned debug mode although I am not capable of using it, I think you are right on it. So the next step is to find the range of these RNG, and what stats are actually randomized. It would be great help if you can find these.
Regarding player level affect difficulty, I'm still doubtful about it. It's really beyond the experiance of any player or forum I visited. It might because the actual influence is so small that is easily neglected, or maybe they are only used in multiplayer game. Or is it possible that these equations are just abandoned equations and are never used in game?
One interesting thing in these equation is that it seems they could be used in multiplayer game. I know devs of AE said they totally reworked the balance with difficulties and multiplayer game, but since they never announced any detailed patch notes since Ragnarok, it would be glad if someone figure that out.
Plus, maybe, just maybe it does not affect actual stats of monsters, but affect the chance of hero monsters or higher tier monsters to be generated in game?
Title: Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
Post by: koderkrazy on 11 June 2018, 10:37:21
So the next step is to find the range of these RNG, and what stats are actually randomized. It would be great help if you can find these.
It could be done, but it will take some time.

Regarding player level affect difficulty, I'm still doubtful about it. It's really beyond the experiance of any player or forum I visited. It might because the actual influence is so small that is easily neglected, or maybe they are only used in multiplayer game. Or is it possible that these equations are just abandoned equations and are never used in game?
I did an experiment, I tried to kill same monster on normal difficulty with level 40 character, then level 80 character, multiple times.
I got only 3 sets of numbers for killing Triton Raiders multiple times.
Kill 1: 1152.00--518.40(hp--energy)
Kill 2: 1200.00--540.00
Kill 3: 1248.00--561.00
The numbers turned out to be same for both the difficulty.
So the player level is not affecting monster stats. I am striking out my earlier statements regarding player level.   :-[

Plus, maybe, just maybe it does not affect actual stats of monsters, but affect the chance of hero monsters or higher tier monsters to be generated in game?
yes, spawn chance does increase with number of players in party. I found following equations:
(https://image.ibb.co/nbupXo/spawn_Chance.jpg)
Here, poolValue is chance specified for each monster in the area pool. There are multiple places in database where such equations are mentioned. So it is  hard to figure out which ones actually get used by the game and which ones are redundant.