Author Topic: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build  (Read 2441 times)

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Offline Laionidas

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Since buying Ragnarok, I've been playing a new character as an experiment. The idea is to see if Runeword: Explode and Runeword: Burn could provide a viable alternative to the nerfed Scatter Shot Arrows. I'm still in Act V Normal, but so far, it has proven to be fun.

Going for these skills at level 82. Even for Ragnarok, level 82 is a bit high, but bear in mind that this is a solo archer that comes with a fully maxed Core Dweller. Dropping one of the one point wonders and lowering Corey's synergies easily gets you down to 75 or so.

Putting 81 attribute points in Dex., and the rest in Int. Breakdown below:

Spoiler for Attribute Points:
Quote
Strength
Base:            50
Rune:            32
Earth:            0
Quests:            42
-----------------------------
Base:            124
Total:            124
Required:         157

Dexterity
Base:            50
Rune:            48
Earth:            48
Quests:            18
-----------------------------
Base:            164
Added 81:         324
Total:            488
Required:         486

Intelligence
Base:            50
Rune:            64
Earth:            96
Quests:            18
-----------------------------
Base:            228
Level 75:         340
Total:            568
Required:         n.a.

Str. is a bit lower than I'd want, but the difference is so small, gear or Runeword: Feather can take care of it easily. In fact, taking Runeword: Feather and then dropping it once you're fully geared (and probably got at least some +Str. modifier somewhere), might be the way to go. The stats were chosen so that a Legendary Bramblewood can be equiped without any further gear requirements, though Ichaival is probably the best bow for this build.

Spoiler for Bramblewood & Ichaival:
Quote
Quote
« Last Edit: 31 May 2018, 10:09:36 by Laionidas »

Offline tholuneve

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #1 on: 31 May 2018, 05:42:37 »
If I'm reading correctly, you mean bow Stonespeaker, rather than thrown weapon or others.
Well...I never thought about that. I think it might work. But...your link is a Thunderer build...so I don't know what makes you level 82 to complete.

In fact, taking Runeword: Feather and then dropping it once you're fully geared (and probably got at least some +Str. modifier somewhere), might be the way to go.
About this I can safely say always max Runeword: Feather and don't invest str is the best choice.

And someone recently find out that Gusir's Gifts has hidden 100% chance to pierce. I haven't find it yet so I can't verify. But if it does, I think it would also be a good choice.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #2 on: 31 May 2018, 10:20:15 »
Oops,.. I probably had too many tabs with Calcs open, and copied the wrong link. I modified and corrected the OP now.

The idea of a bow Stonespeaker came to me after it was mentioned by someone that Thunder Strike wroks on bows, by firing a full five arrows. I've tested it now, and all effects seem to carry over.

About this I can safely say always max Runeword: Feather and don't invest str is the best choice.

True -42% req. is massive, and for builds that do not need Str. for damage, it's a very solid investment for 6 skillpoints.

Archers though, barely need any Str. for weapon requirements. I think at higher levels neither investing in Str. nor Runeword: Feather will be necessary.

And someone recently find out that Gusir's Gifts has hidden 100% chance to pierce. I haven't find it yet so I can't verify. But if it does, I think it would also be a good choice.

That'd be very interesting, especially since this build does not come with any native chance to pierce, being a Rune based archer, rather than a Hunting based one. That also makes Gusir's "level 8 Volley" really usefull. In combination with Thunder Strike it'd be absolutely lethal. Even if Volley won't proc of it, having both passive as well as active multi-shot capabilities, is a huge asset. Considering how Thunder Strike behaves so far, I wouldn't be too surprised if it can proc Volley though. That'd give you an occassional 15 arrows per shot  :o

Offline Firebrand

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #3 on: 31 May 2018, 17:37:35 »
That'd be very interesting, especially since this build does not come with any native chance to pierce, being a Rune based archer, rather than a Hunting based one. That also makes Gusir's "level 8 Volley" really usefull. In combination with Thunder Strike it'd be absolutely lethal. Even if Volley won't proc of it, having both passive as well as active multi-shot capabilities, is a huge asset. Considering how Thunder Strike behaves so far, I wouldn't be too surprised if it can proc Volley though. That'd give you an occassional 15 arrows per shot  :o

Also keep in mind that according to tests made with Jagged Silk and Hoi Polloi, separate instances of Volley from different sources (your own skill tree and one or more items) stack. So any character with Hunting and maxed Volley and Gusir's Gifts is going to spread arrows like a madman.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2018, 22:22:47 »
Also keep in mind that according to tests made with Jagged Silk and Hoi Polloi, separate instances of Volley from different sources (your own skill tree and one or more items) stack. So any character with Hunting and maxed Volley and Gusir's Gifts is going to spread arrows like a madman.

That's crazy.

I think Hunting has an issue though: it has always been a skillpoint-heavy mastery, especially for the archer route, and with Scatter Shot nerfed, the questions rises whether it's worth it. The Gusir's stacked arrow spreader could work, but I'd pick a secondary mastery only as a minor.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #5 on: 16 June 2018, 13:02:00 »
So, I cleared Act V for the first time with my Stonespeaker (yeah, I took my time).

I am actually quite impressed with Ragnarok. The voice acting is indeed quite terrible, at least when compared with previous TQ installments, and the Ragnarok content overall feels different. However, some of that was clearly intentional, the plot was not bad and even caught me by suprise at one point, despite me being familiar with the mythology, and the art was pretty decent and varied. I especially liked how they brought back the colour and light of the original, that was somewhat missing in Immortal Throne.

Back on topic, my Stonespeaker had some survivability issues late Act V, which annoyingly, seemed to be entirely due to bugs. Especially on the Yggdrasil maps, or any maps with raised walkways, mobs seem to float above the level rather than walking upon it. This makes them impossible to hit with arrows. There's a visual hit, but the hits don't actually register, like they're on a different plane. For an archer, this means some areas, and some bosses are just a pain to deal with.

Then there's the point that I had hoped to rely quite a bit on Menhir Wall for survivability, but just can't get it to work: when placed in doorways (which is really where you want to place them), mobs seem to be able to glitch through them. At this point I'm really doubting whether I should invest any more points in it, or just give up on it and go for Seal of Fate instead. SoF might be less suited for my build, but at least it isn't bugged. @botebote77 I remember you mentioning using Menhir Wall effectively on one character, did you not encounter glitching mobs at all?

Finally, something essentially unrelated to the survivability issue: I am somewhat disappointed in Thunder Strike. Sure, it looks good with a bow, and five piercing arrows may seem great. the reality is though, that at range you'll never hit a mob with all five arrows, and when shooting at multiple mobs, you'll be lucky if two or three out of five hit their mark. The spread pattern is random too, so you might in fact not hit anything at all. At close range you will hit with all five arrows, but the base casting time is just too long. You'd be better off firing three or so arrows using Rune Weapon and Runeword: Explode, in the same amount of time, with a triple possibility to proc Runeword: Burn for more damage, and have Energy Drain guaranteed to proc as well. I wonder whether Thunder Strike will be worth it when maxed out, because of the sheer amount of +% total damage.

That said, with the effectiveness of Thunder Strike up for debate, the use of a bow for this build becomes more debatable as well, and I have been entertaining the idea of converting to throwing weapons, as previously suggested. The fact that I allready stumbled upon this piece of kit with another relatively low level character only adds to that:

Spoiler for Hiden:

The question rises what I should equip in my off-hand. A shield would be ideal, but even with Runeword: Feather, I'd have nowhere near enough Str. to equip one, so I'd be stuck with Santa's untill I find one of these:

Spoiler for Hiden:

The Wandsworth in particular though, would be downright amazing.

Without those shields, I'd be more or less forced to go with dual-wielding, but Reckless Offense requires four more points that Runeword: Absorb, and would not be as beneficial to this build I think.

Offline botebote77

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #6 on: 16 June 2018, 14:48:23 »
when i spec to ice shard with my thunderer, i use menhir wall.. but i prefer the lightning/EBD build.. haven't played it in a while but no never had that bug.. maybe you haven't invested enough points? it's no good at lvl 1

yggdrasil area, they have thorns.. you probably know that already.. those birds yeah you have to wait for them to come down before you can hit them.. spells like lightning bolt can hit them

thunder strike is good with dual throwing weapons.. i always go for CDR items so thunder strike cooldown has never been a problem for me

sadly, tq-db hasn't been updated.. shield of skuld has a str req of 400+.. i don't have wandsworth shield yet but it probably has a str req as well.. you might need to put a few points on str but i doubt more than 5 is needed

dang touch of nyx i don't have 1 of those yet

The voice acting is indeed quite terrible
soup?
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #7 on: 16 June 2018, 15:19:18 »
Yeah, I figured it needs more points, because they get destroyed easily too, but the glitching mobs don't seem to have anything to do with that.

I know about the thorns, and flying mobs, but I'm not talking about arrows getting stuck in geography, or not hitting mobs. In fact, the birds are easy enough to hit. I'm talking about giants etc., and Loki for example, getting visually hit, but the hit not registering.

The voice acting is indeed quite terrible
soup?

???

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #8 on: 16 June 2018, 15:58:57 »
Finally, something essentially unrelated to the survivability issue: I am somewhat disappointed in Thunder Strike. Sure, it looks good with a bow, and five piercing arrows may seem great. the reality is though, that at range you'll never hit a mob with all five arrows, and when shooting at multiple mobs, you'll be lucky if two or three out of five hit their mark. The spread pattern is random too, so you might in fact not hit anything at all. At close range you will hit with all five arrows, but the base casting time is just too long. You'd be better off firing three or so arrows using Rune Weapon and Runeword: Explode, in the same amount of time, with a triple possibility to proc Runeword: Burn for more damage, and have Energy Drain guaranteed to proc as well. I wonder whether Thunder Strike will be worth it when maxed out, because of the sheer amount of +% total damage.
I had a similar impression about thunder strike when playing dragon hunter (with throwing weapons) in epic, but it passed in legendary, or more specifically late legendary. Rune weapon explode seems enough for everything, just until you stumble on lvl 80+ mobs absurd hp with legendary resist on top. Then you have to use all your skills loadout, thunder strike too. Yes, it gets better with point investment, and yes its still much better at shotgunning than even average range.

Quote
Then there's the point that I had hoped to rely quite a bit on Menhir Wall for survivability, but just can't get it to work
It is much like briar ward in that it recieves more hp in epic and legendary while you will also get more cooldown reduction gear. It gets a lot of hp from point investment too so definetely invest in it if you can.

Quote
The question rises what I should equip in my off-hand. A shield would be ideal, but even with Runeword: Feather, I'd have nowhere near enough Str.
Many legendary items have stats on them, my dragon hunter has Hera's shield with + str/dex/int, just... don't unequip it  :)
Are you using or going to use stonebinders for all skills? Then you might be free to chose whatever necklace you want, and look at Crimson gem of Cytorus. For example.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #9 on: 16 June 2018, 16:08:18 »
Quote
Then there's the point that I had hoped to rely quite a bit on Menhir Wall for survivability, but just can't get it to work
It is much like briar ward in that it recieves more hp in epic and legendary while you will also get more cooldown reduction gear. It gets a lot of hp from point investment too so definetely invest in it if you can.

But what about the mobs glitching through? Am I really the only one that has that issue?

Offline botebote77

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #10 on: 16 June 2018, 17:59:43 »
that's possible i have never experienced it and have never read in any forum that kind of bug.. still, i suggest you try it on higher levels first.. but do you really need it? core dweller dies fast? or you don't have it yet?

dual chakram of the sun i really think is the ideal way to go.. i use one on my skinchanger and the chance to petrify procs quite a lot.. and that's on legendary.. 2 chakram sun's with thunder strike could be good enough CC.. it has 15% CDR so that's 30% from weapons alone.. deals 146-156 fire damage on top of the base physical which will also get converted to elemental.. then finally +2 to earth.. use it with legendary SB cuffs enhanced with primal magma and you can probably max core dweller, thunder strike, rune weapon, magical charge, and more

edit: and ah yes.. if you have 2 equipped, you get +40% total damage.. that's a f^|π lot
« Last Edit: 16 June 2018, 18:27:06 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #11 on: 16 June 2018, 19:14:53 »
But what about the mobs glitching through? Am I really the only one that has that issue?
And what is the problem there? If one or two glitches, you kill them first. They aren't glitching, they can actually pass through, like pets moving NPCs while you talk to them. They just attack it when its on their way, and some end up attacking from the other side.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #12 on: 16 June 2018, 22:51:43 »
that's possible i have never experienced it and have never read in any forum that kind of bug.. still, i suggest you try it on higher levels first.. but do you really need it? core dweller dies fast? or you don't have it yet?

dual chakram of the sun i really think is the ideal way to go.. i use one on my skinchanger and the chance to petrify procs quite a lot.. and that's on legendary.. 2 chakram sun's with thunder strike could be good enough CC.. it has 15% CDR so that's 30% from weapons alone.. deals 146-156 fire damage on top of the base physical which will also get converted to elemental.. then finally +2 to earth.. use it with legendary SB cuffs enhanced with primal magma and you can probably max core dweller, thunder strike, rune weapon, magical charge, and more

edit: and ah yes.. if you have 2 equipped, you get +40% total damage.. that's a f^€|π lot

No I haven't tried Corey yet, since I was still playing Normal. I just picked Menhirs, as it seemed sensible for an archer: put up a wall, fire safely from behind the wall. Guess not,..

There is indeed a good chance though, that I won't actually need them, in which case getting Seal of Fate instead, for a debuff, would be a good alternative all the more.

Dual-wielding two Chakram of the Sun sounds interesting, it's gonna end up like a Xena build then. I should do a montage once I've farmed them, and add the anoying sounds she used to make, at way too frequent intervals.

Spoiler for Xena's sound:

And what is the problem there? If one or two glitches, you kill them first. They aren't glitching, they can actually pass through, like pets moving NPCs while you talk to them. They just attack it when its on their way, and some end up attacking from the other side.

No, you are missing the point, they are in fact glitching. I'm not talking about mobs attacking the stones, moving around or inbetween. To my knowledge a 'wall' is intended as a seperation between one area and another. If a person or object dissappears from area A, and subsequently magically reappears in area B, then the wall is not working as intended, and the teleporting can be designated as a 'problem' in the function of the wall. I can kill them first, but I could have done so even without the wall, thus the wall no longer serves any purpose.

Think about it like this: if president Trump completes the wall, yet the next day two million illegal immigrants enter Manhattan, New York directly by Concorde, then yes, they are there, and yes Trump can still make deporting them a priority, but was the wall worth investing in? Probably not, and you would still wonder where some poor Mexicans got all the Concordes.

Offline botebote77

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #13 on: 17 June 2018, 00:43:25 »
huhahahaha

wait wait Hector said the same thing about mobs phasing through the wall

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=236.msg5092#msg5092
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Laionidas

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Re: [AE 1.56 theory] Scatter Shot Alternative Stonespeaker Build
« Reply #14 on: 17 June 2018, 09:47:22 »
huhahahaha

wait wait Hector said the same thing about mobs phasing through the wall

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=236.msg5092#msg5092

YES!

That's exactly what I mean. Tagging @Hector in this.

The skill's radius is miserable and the delay should absolutely go.. for these reasons, I still think the skill is simply the result of a bad game design (though the amount of debuff it applies is really really strong, I gotta admit that)..

The debuff is strong indeed, but it needs to be mentioned that it requires 22 skillpoints to max out both Menhir Wall, and Guardian Stones, while putting only 1 skillpoint in Seal of Fate, and 6 to max out Aftershock provides an arguably better debuff, be it a single triggered one, rather than a constant one.

Really, without a reliable 'wall' function Menhir Wall as a skill is dead to me  ???

I'm even more convinced now though, that this is a genuine bug, that theoretically should get fixed in a patch.

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