Author Topic: Masteries Sink Points  (Read 590 times)

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Offline botebote77

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Masteries Sink Points
« on: 31 March 2018, 00:58:18 »
good day people.. I've made the boring task of counting how many skill points you can spend on each mastery.. i know this doesn't mean anything, i mean why would you want to max a skill you hardly have any use for? and there's not enough skill points to max each skill anyways.. but, well (shrugs) :}

nature is the mastery that gives the most sink points, while warfare the least

runes: 228
spirit: 232
nature: 256
dream: 232
storm: 230
earth: 246
rogue 228
warfare: 196
hunting: 204
defense: 202

numbers include mastery points (32) ie: warfare mastery, defense mastery
« Last Edit: 31 March 2018, 01:08:39 by botebote77 »
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Offline AlcyonV

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #1 on: 31 March 2018, 03:06:57 »
and there's not enough skill points to max each skill anyways..

There are 282 skill points for a lvl85 character. All the masteries can easily be completed with Ragnarök.

Even with lvl75 (252 points), what everyone can easily reach at Legendary's end (85 means long farming), Nature only can't be completed without +X to skills or masteries.

Or even with a second mastery, only for more attributes points, it's not a problem.

Efficiency is another question.

Offline nargil66

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #2 on: 31 March 2018, 13:09:27 »
Thanks for the list. It will help me alot on my mod (to make all masteries have equal points).

Offline Nimroth

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #3 on: 31 March 2018, 19:24:03 »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #4 on: 31 March 2018, 22:44:38 »
Can you have a look at this ?
http://steamcommunity.com/app/475150/discussions/0/1470840994970643790/
i read.. and i found it quite... ... ... funny..  lol sorry to Monzcato dude

saying the game is unbalanced because the masteries don't have the same sink points is poor reasoning

let's compare gouge and open wound.. both give %chance of bleeding.. but gouge only needs 6 skill points to max, open wound needs 12.. I'd much rather take gouge.. nature has 256 sink points while warfare has 196, does that mean nature is so much better than warfare? or warfare because it needs less skill points? neither really

i think there is good balance between the masteries already.. it's just different people prefer different playstyles and they think the masteries they don't like are weak.. i like casters but earth really isn't my playstyle.. but Firebrand and CrocMagnum seem to do good with earth.. many people don't like casters so maybe they don't like storm and maybe they say storm is weak.. I'm ready to prove them wrong.. i remember reading somewhere someone said rogue is trash.. i just chuckled but i did say that "just because you can't make it work doesn't mean it's trash"

edit: eh my tablet didn't copy at first

edit 2: he did say the more skill points you have, the stronger you are.. damn so the 2 strongest classes in the game are soothsayer and ritualist.. and warden is the weakest followed by conqueror
« Last Edit: 31 March 2018, 23:00:16 by botebote77 »
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Offline MedeaFleecestealer

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #5 on: 01 April 2018, 09:33:34 »
And you wouldn't max out all the skills in a mastery anyway, never mind a class.  Even when I plan to play just a single mastery I'm not going to be putting points into all the skills.

Offline nargil66

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #6 on: 01 April 2018, 18:23:16 »
Hmm, weird... Two of my masteries already have exactly 200 points for skills, and i planned to stick on the number with others. Maybe some people think similar (or just like round numbers, haha). IMO he's right about one thing:
Quote
The first step is to balance needed points. After balancing basics balancing advanced things would be easier. Not vice versa. That could get complicated.

edit 2: he did say the more skill points you have, the stronger you are.. damn so the 2 strongest classes in the game are soothsayer and ritualist.. and warden is the weakest followed by conqueror

And you don't see any imbalance in this? Point sinks classes being weaker?

Offline botebote77

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #7 on: 02 April 2018, 00:47:33 »
no not at all.. first of all, i have never maxed out every skill in one character and i have several 70+characters already though I've never reached 85.. 2nd, when you're near end game, you'll always have to answer for yourself "where do i put all these skill points at?" the more sink points you can spend on, the better (usually but not always the case).. that happened to me several times.. at first i thought it's not good if there are too many good skill points to take.. but i think around the time of ragnarok release, i find it better if there are too many good skills to take.. main exception is my mage haruspex, all i really need to max are study prey, monster lure and distortion wave.. I've maxed those quite early and it's still too good.. 3rd is skill progression.. some skills are best when maxed, some are best left as one point wonders, some are good at around 5 points.. so it's not really the more sink points the better, or the less the better.. personally i prefer nature than warfare but many people probably prefer warfare.. 4th, it's not really the more skill points the better, or the less the better.. it's how you distribute it.. and how it goes well with the stats you take and the items you choose to wear

edit: there is a good soothsayer build.. permanent outsider with lots of pets.. all of them have HoO and permanent unearthly power.. unearthly power is weird.. when applied to allies, they get the buffs but not the health penalty.. only you get the penalty but that wouldn't matter because of briar ward sanctuary.. it's not too hard to make either because of refresh and circle of power.. and if you have enough skill points, you can maybe mix ternion.. so that's an example of the more sink points the better

edit 2: eidolon shell and echo of tartarus.. heh heh heh heh >:D ..  too bad i just can't bring myself to enjoy pet heavy builds

ritualist I'm not sure yet but some of the things i can think: trance of empathy so pets get life steal and thorns.. of course with nightmare mastermind.. strength of the pack to boost distortion wave then plague.. i think that also costs lots of skill points.. hmm if summon outsider from echo of tartarus procs with distortion wave this could be good heh heh heh heh >:D

edit 3: eh just saw this

http://titanquest.wikia.com/wiki/Echoe_of_Tartarus

300 seconds recharge not good
« Last Edit: 02 April 2018, 03:38:11 by botebote77 »
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Offline nargil66

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #8 on: 02 April 2018, 08:32:25 »
Yeah, I guess your right, every class can be strong with the right build... but generally neither ritualist or soothsayer are considered among the strongest classes. You have to make non-typical builds, which often are gear dependant, to make them equal to any straightforward conqueror or warden. But on the other side, non-typical builds are more interesting to play.

some skills are best when maxed, some are best left as one point wonders

I see a problem there. Why a 1 point wonder skills should even exist? Isn't it better to merge it with the main skill or some other modifier and make place for more usefull skill that's worth investing in? List of 1 point wonders i can think of:

Quote
Accelerated Growth
Old Rapid Construction
Old Heat Shield (not sure about new)
Molten Rock
Wildfire
Resilience
Stinging Nettle
Old Battle Rage + Modifiers (not sure about new)
Trail Blazing

Ever seen a build in which maxing Accelerated Growth is worth it? For me 1 point wonder means the skill is either not worth investing in for more than its basic effect, or too strong - the bonus is more than enough at 1 point. Even if i'm wrong for few, you get the idea. Some of them are real waste of skill tree space if you ask me.
« Last Edit: 02 April 2018, 08:34:13 by nargil66 »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #9 on: 02 April 2018, 10:09:57 »
but one point wonders exist.. not just in this game.. maybe even before this game was created

a weird one point wonder: call of the hunt (for mages only) lelz but really the 33% damage to beasts works on spells

edit: one could argue that weapon user melees are more gear dependent because you need good weapons and high armor gear with good resists.. soothsayer is not gear dependent.. but probably it's hard for a self-found soothsayer when playing in xmax
« Last Edit: 02 April 2018, 10:23:05 by botebote77 »
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Offline Tauceti

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #10 on: 02 April 2018, 17:27:38 »
I've sorted masteries with this criteria: the mean number of points needed to fulfill a skill. If we define the diversity as the number of possible skills in a mastery, then all masteries have the same diversity: 20, with one exception for runemaster: 21.

Mastery -Skill points -Diversity -Mean points / skill
Warfare196209.8
Defense2022010.1
Hunting2042010.2
Rune2282110.9
Rogue2282011.4
Storm2302011.5
Dream2322011.6
Spirit2322011.6
Earth2462012.3
Nature2562012.8

Then, if we combine masteries, Conqueror warden and slayer are the ones with roughly a mean efficiency of 10 points per skill, whereas pet classes like summoner and soothsayer are well above with more than 12 pts per skill, meaning obviously that one needs +skill items for theses classes. On the other hand, conqueror is the class that shines much sooner in the game.
« Last Edit: 02 April 2018, 17:35:26 by Tauceti »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #11 on: 02 April 2018, 19:42:51 »
conqueror is the class that shines much sooner in the game.
that sounds rather biased.. not saying you're right, not saying you're wrong.. it's you're personal opinion.. i think when you talk end game you should also consider end game items.. and ragnarok has so many OP items that aren't best for a conqueror: gungnir, OP throwing weapons, ring of the dragon hunter (at least for a dragon hunter).. those are just the ones i know
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Offline Tauceti

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #12 on: 02 April 2018, 20:28:23 »
I think i misspoke. It isn't a personal opinion because i never played a conqueror  :D. When i said a conqueror shines sooner in the game, it was in reference to the table above: this class is more efficient in terms of number of points spent in both masteries. I didn't want to affirm that a conqueror is stronger that any other class because indeed it depends on:
1 - skill design (ex: wood lore, ternion, dodge attack make a real improvment of the toon for only a few points)
2 - gear design, as you say it depends how well a class will find useful items
3 - synergy between both masteries
4 - and finally the skill points distribution design: your and mine tables in this thread

Whatever we can say for a particular class regarding points 1,2 and 3, to my mind it is irrelevant to point 4.

I mean: the whole pattern (points 1-2-3-4) could have been improved by a better skill point distribution design, e.g a choice for 200 skill points for any mastery. It could be done easily by a rescaling of some skills (like the pets skill tree).

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2018, 18:37:02 »
It's quite interesting that it differs so much per mastery. That said, there is also a big difference between actual point sinks and perceived point sinks. I've always felt that Earth, followed by Dream, and in fact, yes, dual-wield Warfare were the three biggest point sinks respectively. Earth because Brimstone, Ring of Flame, Volativity, and Corey just work to well for both physical and elemental builds, and those together goble up a lot of points. Dream just has a lot of different skills that are too good to ignore, and while the skillbranches are short, a lot of them are sneaky twelve-pointers. Dual-wield Warfare is the opposite: you got a lot of small six-point procs, and Onslaught, oh,.. and Battle Standard, and there, you're points are now gone.

let's compare gouge and open wound.. both give %chance of bleeding.. but gouge only needs 6 skill points to max, open wound needs 12.. I'd much rather take gouge..

Gouge needs 6 skillpoints for a 16% of a special (slow) animated weapon attack, that does 297 bleeding over 3 seconds. At 12 skillpoints Open Wound has a 33% chance of doing 309 bleeding damage over 3 seconds, over any normal attack, LMB replacement, or proc. That means that Open Wound has double the chance to do the same amount of damage, which stacks with other procs (unlike Gouge, which is itself a proc), at a speed that is capped only by the player's attack speed or other triggering proc.

Yes, Open Wound needs twice the skillpoints to max, but it is also insanely better than Gouge. Heck, even at half capacity (6 points, same as maxed Gouge), Open Wound is probably still better, since it does half the damage, but still comes at twice the frequency and without being hindered by it being a slowly animated proc.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Masteries Sink Points
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2018, 20:22:22 »
those 2 are near useless skills i don't want to think about it.. I've maxed gouge on at least 1 of my characters before (endgame of course) but I've never maxed open wound.. spending 6 points on gouge feels like a waste.. spending 12 points on open wound feels like a waste.. arguing over 2 near useless skills feels like a waste ;D
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