Author Topic: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith  (Read 4270 times)

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Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #45 on: 12 July 2018, 19:43:13 »
I have no idea why you people so religiously defend such things as if your life depends on them.. I'm really throwing the towel here, you win..
I actually felt bad about tholuneve more than I did for myself here, because he used all that time to write those long paragraphs just to be refuted again and again to no end..
To you, its crucial and needed for a defender.. to me, its an aimless skill as it is (active skill).. as I mentioned before, amgoz did actually manage to bring some sense into it by integrating it to the Adrenaline tree as a passive skill in Soulvizier.. it was a brilliant idea because a trivial skill such as this one can only belong to a skill tree by being a passive utility, so that you don't have to worry about going through unnecessary casting animations in the heat of battles.. if it triggers, good.. wouldn't hurt.. if it doesn't, who cares..
Lets just agree to disagree.. 

« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 19:51:51 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #46 on: 13 July 2018, 03:34:06 »
ahhh now i get it.. for you it's good if it's passive but since you have to recast it again and again it gets tedious right? now i can't fault you here.. this depends on the preference of the player.. btw you don't really have to recast it again and  again.. i mean why would you need it against satyrs? just select mobs, dragonians would be a good example.. iirc amgoz nerfed the values in favor of being passive

now for me as a player, having to recast it every minute isn't really a pain.. actually, the reason why i find defense to be the most boring mastery :D is because (1)it locks you to a shield and (2)it lacks active skills.. that is not to say it is weak, hell no.. i just find other masteries to be more enjoyable.. my str + dex melee bonecharmer, gear was towards CDR items to get call of the hunt and unearthly power permanent.. that meant having to recast call of the hunt every minute and dark covenant every 30secs.. i did not find it tedious at all

my skinchanger, upon encounter of every mob, i had to recast briar ward, guardian stones, plague, freezing mines and refresh.. every mob.. that is excluding my attacks thunder strike and rune weapon.. not to mention i also had to recast energy armor and rune of life from time to time.. so it depends on the preference of the player

i think this is getting out of hand.. i mean you don't really think it is useless right? it is not an "i win" skill but certainly not useless.. like, i play casters i don't use onslaught so that one is useless.. that would be ridiculous
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Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #47 on: 13 July 2018, 09:33:52 »
so i tested it along with runeword:absorb.. the 90% capping really is a nerf.. maybe some people still see this as a 10/10 skill because Poinas rated it as such.. maybe that's where the overrated thing comes from? it's far from a 10/10 skill now

however, the skill still serves its purpose.. i used koderkrazy's show damage mod so i can clearly see the damage numbers.. i tested it against act 4 Lamia beastmen on legendary and yeah against heavy mobs, i was still taking way too much damage.. however, i also see some monster's hits make no damage.. that meant i was blocking more attacks when i have it up.. so i tested it against only 1 monster just to confirm, and I'm taking no damage at all.. so it got nerfed alright, but you still block more attacks once you have it up
« Last Edit: 13 July 2018, 09:36:14 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #48 on: 13 July 2018, 13:28:39 »
I have no idea why you people so religiously defend such things as if your life depends on them.. I'm really throwing the towel here, you win..
I actually felt bad about tholuneve more than I did for myself here, because he used all that time to write those long paragraphs just to be refuted again and again to no end..
Arguing on the internet is tireing isn't it? If he spent all the time writing it he won't be regretting it, but why do you even do that? Its clear without explaining, what is important is yours conclusions.

Situation: the skill does not live up to your expectations. What do?

Lets get rid of it quick, not wasting a single point in it

or

Keep it if you have points, there are no useless defense layers.


You are going to throw block out of the window in a dedicated block build. You mad bro. TQ is a simplistic game ofc, maybe it will tolerate that too for what play time you have left on that character.

Also, its not like weather you know, the wind has blown and your block has broke. Its numbers that can be fixed, you just have to find a way to tell the people working on it. :)

Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #49 on: 13 July 2018, 18:56:54 »
Quote
ahhh now i get it.. for you it's good if it's passive but since you have to recast it again and again it gets tedious right?

Yes, we could put it like that I guess.. you know, I actually hate using the "I" language so much, because it shouldn't be about just one individual or a few people.. when expressing an issue, I always try hard to make the case look like it isn't just about me but everyone else but in the end, it doesn't look that way unfortunately..

Quote
Arguing on the internet is tireing isn't it?


I get what you mean buddy.. it especially creates extra tension and uncomfortable mood if you're arguing with people whom you get along well or simply have good intentions towards in general..

I don't know how we can find a way to tell the people working on these issues because I don't believe they are working on real issues anyway :P
They just polished the game, took all the efforts of guys (fanpatch fixes) who actually cared about this game and presented it like they created something better after 10 years.. I never trust devs, makers, anything wired tightly to the system itself.. I only care about other players and their efforts to be honest..

Well, it seems like another heated topic has been left behind.. see you in the future arguments gentlemen  :) 
« Last Edit: 13 July 2018, 18:59:15 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #50 on: 13 July 2018, 19:43:30 »
I'll write something i think we will both agree in.. and no I'm not writing just so we can have something to agree :) ..  I've been wanting to write it for a while now.. I've actually started writing it a while ago (in my head).

but I'm not criticizing skills.. I'm criticizing items.. I'm at peace with just about every skill in the game.. i actually like that everything can be useful even at late stages of the game, even a tier 1 skill.. and i think they beat diablo 2 at skill design.. that putting points on lower tiered skills improves higher tiered skills is a lame attempt at convincing people that lower tiered skills are still good even late game.. those never existed in the earlier versions, just in the later updates.. i believe they did it to keep up with newer games but they failed at that imo
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #51 on: 14 July 2018, 20:05:40 »
What is it about? the game itself or something else?

About Diablo, yeah that synergy bullshit right? it was one of the things that made the game lost its appeal for me as well.. I hate people always say that Titan Quest is the most decent Diablo clone.. even this is supposed to be a positive comment, it is still an insult to our beloved game.. yes, Diablo II was a classic and will remain as that but I've never considered TQ as a clone of that game.. TQ in fact did exceed Diablo.. it is a better game and I'm not even talking about better graphics.. story, gameplay, everything is better in TQ.. maybe just one exception; Diablo managed to implement skills that don't require cooldown mechanics.. this seeming advantage could not be abused and the game was still challenging despite it..   

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #52 on: 15 July 2018, 09:54:09 »
What is it about? the game itself or something else?

this it but i wanted to keep it light, so...
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=547.msg5719#msg5719

About Diablo, yeah that synergy bullshit right?
yes exactly
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #53 on: 15 July 2018, 10:20:43 »
OK I tested, and confirmed that block happens BEFORE resistance take into effect.
The test is as follows. Find a shield, in my case I bought one from Epic A1, which has 193 block amount. Go to Legendary A5, find these Empusa, kill all but leave one alone. Now unequip everything that grants the resistance of that Empusa does, and see how block works. No block at all.
Now equip everything that grants resistance of that damage type, make it as high as possible. In my case I made my fire resistance 69%, and the damage from Empusa per hit is around 140, which is lower than the shield block amount. Still, as I expected, still no block at all.
If resistances is to work before block, then I should be able to block the attacks from Empusa after I raised my resistance.
The test above is very easy to repeat. You can test it on your own if you don't believe in that.

Note:
Consider the test above the damage and block amount is kinda close, I did a further test. This time find another shield with 329 block amount and further raised my resistance so that the damage is around 100 per hit. Still no block.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2018, 10:29:31 by tholuneve »

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #54 on: 15 July 2018, 10:27:58 »
I've been with a templar through that same area, start of act 4 legendary, and formycids are really a bad example. Lamias just above can do more, and any archers even more. Both would make an opposite example.

I didn't try to get max pierce resistance on that character though, and exactly for the reason that block exists.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #55 on: 15 July 2018, 11:15:40 »
don't want to do any more tests I'm too lazy for that.. i can't even use my PC right now it's having problems.. btw those are not my mechanics too i merely provided links to

1) steamcommunity
2) titanquest.wikia
3) something that i previously debunked

and I've tested quick recovery before and it works.. so it's not useless because the only way it would be useless is if it doesn't work

one thing i noticed about your tests, you used it against empusa but empusa deal AoE damage right? shield can't block that right? it's not that i don't trust you man but i think empusa is not the right monster to test it with.. actually i don't care if it's before or after.. it's not a big issue for me
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #56 on: 15 July 2018, 14:08:59 »
don't want to do any more tests I'm too lazy for that.. i can't even use my PC right now it's having problems.. btw those are not my mechanics too i merely provided links to

1) steamcommunity
2) titanquest.wikia
3) something that i previously debunked

and I've tested quick recovery before and it works.. so it's not useless because the only way it would be useless is if it doesn't work

one thing i noticed about your tests, you used it against empusa but empusa deal AoE damage right? shield can't block that right? it's not that i don't trust you man but i think empusa is not the right monster to test it with.. actually i don't care if it's before or after.. it's not a big issue for me
I tested mainly on Empusa's basic attack, not its aoe skills. But since you mentioned that, it seems that aoe skill is actually projectile+ranged which can be blocked, because when I use another shield (Achilles Shield), I was able to block both Empusa's basic attack AND its aoe skill. It's pretty clear and easy to observe, I stood in the flame, with quick recovery on, and took literally no damage at all.

Offline Vio

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #57 on: 22 July 2018, 17:27:36 »
The damage blocked should be after reductions.
Regardless of the order, though, I think we can all agree that this is an added layer of defense, which by definition can only be beneficial. And that stopping ~1000 damage from going to your health up to 3 times per second is nothing to sneeze at.

And I don't mean this in a mean way, Hector, but there is an obvious mismatch between the amount of criticism you have for some skills and your understanding of them. While that is definitely not the only measure, there is a reason some of them are so popular. You just have to find the right use case.

Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #58 on: 22 July 2018, 22:44:42 »
Maybe you're right.. I mean you're definitely right about the "mismatching" part.. my understanding of some of the mechanics in this game is purely based on how it "feels" during gaming.. sort of a superstitious experience, if you will.. though most of the time, this gut feeling has proven to be useful and accurate in many situations but of course it doesn't mean the opposite can't happen.. I don't have the amount of mathematical knowledge you guys have for this game after all.. and the worst part is; I'm an inconsistent debater when the debate itself goes on for an unexpectedly long time.. a characteristic flaw in my part, I believe..

Anyways... I still more or less hold the same ideas about QR.. its not, say, a battle standart tier skill.. you may say its because they serve different purposes but people make it look like they are equally crucial in terms of survivability.. and there is this issue with it being an active skill but I don't wanna repeat myself like a parrot here..

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