Author Topic: TQ Ragnarok Runemaster: It's Effect on Other Elemental Melee Classes in Vanilla  (Read 2227 times)

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Offline gasconron

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So I haven't bought the expansion yet, but I just saw the skill description of the new mastery.
I have to say, I am not too happy...

I have made a lot of INT heavy melee in the past. They were a joy to play and even more fun to build, as hybrid classes are normally harder to optimize for.
This new class, on the otherhand, trivializes the effort other [non-Runemaster based] elemental-melee hybrids have had to go through to have a fairly successful gameplay.

Dual Elemental Affixes on MI's? Who needs to farm those?
STR req problems and Stat allocation planning? Who needs to do that?
This new class blows out every elemental damage based melee-hybrid out of the water in terms of ease of use, ease of building and item optimization.

Skills:
Unlike in the vanilla game. Just adding 20-30 flat elemental damage from any equipment piece is welcome as it kicks up your DPS significantly. The Rune Weapons tree gives MASSIVE flat elemental damage. So much so that you don't even need to seek other sources from your equipment. And with it weapon damage conversion to elemental damage (63% at max level), the higher your weapon’s base damage is the higher your elemental damage is.

The skill Runeword: Feather drops STR req of weapons to -46%!!! and gives 106 OA… wtf…

You have a 20% damage absorption, massive % CDR and attack speed% boost at a certain HP% threshold. A low CD consumable damage shield the negates Physical, Pierce and Bleeding. A Buff that gives a generous amount of Vitality and Bleeding Resistance. Summons that redirects monster aggro and absorbs incoming damage… Jesus Christ.

As someone who played Thane, Battlemage, Paladin & Juggernaut, I find myself scratching my head at this new class. Here is a “new kid on the block” able to do virtually the same thing we can, but in a more efficient manner, less our fancy skill gimmicks which were mostly used for utility rather than damage in the first place.

I have a feeling the a Runemaster + Earth/Storm/Warfare/Defense will outperform any Elemental melee counterpart that is not Runemaster-based. A new mastery is well and good but, devs really should pay attention how new content affects the overall health of the game. Reading these skill descriptions made me rage so hard last night. I almost uninstalled.

Thoughts? Reactions? Am I having a hissy fit?  >:(

Offline botebote77

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aloha.. i have a great deal of respect to those who like to experiment and that seems to include you.. i too had the same reaction at first look.. this mastery is f***in OP and makes complicated hybrids simple.. buuut the second time i looked at it, it didn't look so good.. and as i tried it in-game, it really didn't feel OP.. now i have a feeling it's just good late game as a support mastery

the last upgrade of rune weapon is not worth all those points imo except for pure int chars.. maybe not max it for hybrids but your physical damage would be lowered too and crit also gets lowered.. and %physical skills like brimstone gets diminished.. I'd rather add elemental damage to my weapon instead of convert it.. if you leave it at like lvl6 to still deal physical damage, and you get a mastery shrine, you might actually deal less damage

the %int and %damage from rune weapon seems good for casters but I'm not sure the time to build up your charge is worth it.. I'd rather spam skills the moment i encounter mobs

i tried seal of fate in a party of 2.. and most of the time when it explodes, the mobs are long dead.. the 3 second wait cannot be reduced

the flat damage absorption is good but at maxed level, the energy cost is 3k+.. and if you don't max it, i feel it's useless at legendary because it's flat absorption and not %.. you can leave it at just the right level that you still can cast it but what if you get a mastery shrine? not getting the shrine for the sole purpose of casting 1 skill feels stupid.. if you cast if before you get it, it will be long gone before the effects of mastery shrine wears off and you can't cast it again because of the high energy cost

the second menhirs cooldown is like 200+ sec right at level 1

the good skills i see are rune of life, thunder strike and runeword feather

i think it lacks synergy between its skills, %damage, and resistance reduction.. all are important late game

rune weapon has %damage but i don't like the time to build up the charge.. the upgrade of seal of fate has resistance reduction but the 3 second wait is too long and by the time you cast another seal of fate, the RR is already gone.. you can reduce resistances using weapons but other masteries can also do that

I'm not sure being a melee int is good late game as you'll be wearing mage armors.. it can be paired with defense but experimentation is meant to be free and not tied up to a certain mastery
« Last Edit: 04 December 2017, 06:10:57 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline gasconron

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I'm not sure being a melee int is good late game as you'll be wearing mage armors.. it can be paired with defense but experimentation is meant to be free and not tied up to a certain mastery

It can be done. I did a 60-70% INT (pre-AE) dual-wield Thane and Battlemage using dual elemental affixed sabretooths, with the remainder of the points focused on DEX and minimal STR for gearing reqs. It was a pain to build progressively rather than build it right out of a template toon, but it can be done. It can clear Legendary content no problem with enough RR shred (dmg) and ADCtH (sustain) and this was on xMax.

But let's take a theoretical Runemaster + Storm/Earth using the same concept I stated building a dual wield. It enjoys the same %damage bonuses it's element specific counterpart enjoys, but the  difference in damage output will be clear when those base elemental damages are compared side by side. Since this class no longer needs elemental bonuses from equipment, what's stopping it to equip a Sapros or a melee weapon with Betrayer on one hand and a fluff weapon (gives HP/resists/+skills) that's not damage focused but will still out-damage the first example, since it relies on the conversion?

I don't even have the expansion yet but I can already imagine my end-game setup for a theoretical 60-70% INT Runemaster + Storm/Earth character. From what I'm visualizing it will beat my 60-70% INT dual-wield Thane and Battlemage in mob clear speed, boss killing ability and survivability. Maybe im over-reacting, it's speculation after all. Now I'm more inclined to buy the expansion earlier than I planned to confirm my worries.  :'(

Offline botebote77

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yeah i know it can be done.. perhaps i phrased it wrong.. but 1 advantage of a hybrid Thane/Battlemage is it can go full hybrid and not favor int.. from my testings (i hope you read my rune observations thread), onslaught beats rune weapon.. anyway what's really bothering me is i can't use my zeus thunderbolts on my throwing weapons.. i need it against those water spirits.. shen nongs and valor of Achilles can be used on throwing weapons but not zeus thunderbolts?

edit: anyway for those who really want elemental conversion, there's a monster charm in act 5 that does that.. and with flat elemental damage too so it's like the 2nd and 4th upgrade of rune weapon.. can be used on rings and amulets
« Last Edit: 04 December 2017, 07:23:58 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Malgardian

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Interesting perspective...but I don't see how the existence of Runemaster invalidates your efforts. Be proud that you did it without it! You played melee int hybrids before it was cool and easy ;)
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Offline Hector

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@botebote77

Seal of fate is a great skill man, what a shame you bash it like that  ;D ;D ;D

Here we are with another necro thread gentlemen (I think I get my necro-satisfaction from here since I can't get to be an actual necro in the game).. I started a battlemage and just realized onslaught got nerfed terribly.. seems like the "doubled damage" factor is gone.. unless getting tons of physical damage and good equipment in the late game, I don't see any point to max it at the beginning.. maybe keep it at level 2 to just make the effects of other passives in the tree last a little longer..

So, do you have any suggestions on which skills to prioritize while leveling up?.. I haven't searched the forum yet but I'm quite sure there isn't any guide for battlemage.. or I'm just blind af..

Offline tholuneve

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Long story short.
You need
https://tq-db.net/equipment/golden-agris-helmet
and
https://tq-db.net/equipment/gambanteinn
Note that both items have 50% phy-to-ele. But due to unknown reason it is not shown in the database. But trust me they do have such stats.

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Why not try physical eruption instead? And not think how to distribute your stat points.

level 30

the end

Offline Hector

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I was guessing by the time I reach level 30, I would at least get soften metal and put some points into it before getting final tier warfare skills.. why do you think only earth enhancement and brimstone (only level 1 brimstone??) are worth getting as offensive skills while leveling up?

Armor reduction values in both Hamstring and Soften metal kinda suggest that they should be used in earlier parts of the game.. at least this is how it looks to me, considering 30 to 110ish armor reduction would not do much good during and after Act V..

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Ring of flame looks good until you check energy usage. If you can compensate that (puppetmaster necklace), why not?

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why do you think only earth enhancement and brimstone (only level 1 brimstone??) are worth getting as offensive skills while leveling up?
Brimstone? If you are doing a physical melee build %physical damage is not urgent and flat burning is not needed. I don't have an opinion on flame surge in ragnarok. Volcanic orb fills the same nieche as war horn for utility and will just make you press more keys if you get both. If you don't mind that and want to throw orbs in normal, why not that too?

My last link has like 20 levels worth of points (60 points) not spent, that can be used anywhere, just nothing else is supposed to be crucial for the build.

Offline botebote77

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@botebote77

Seal of fate is a great skill man, what a shame you bash it like that  ;D ;D ;D

Here we are with another necro thread gentlemen (I think I get my necro-satisfaction from here since I can't get to be an actual necro in the game).. I started a battlemage and just realized onslaught got nerfed terribly.. seems like the "doubled damage" factor is gone.. unless getting tons of physical damage and good equipment in the late game, I don't see any point to max it at the beginning.. maybe keep it at level 2 to just make the effects of other passives in the tree last a little longer..

So, do you have any suggestions on which skills to prioritize while leveling up?.. I haven't searched the forum yet but I'm quite sure there isn't any guide for battlemage.. or I'm just blind af..
weren't you bashing seal of fate just recently? ;D

man, I've played all the characters in diablo 2 and my favorite most fun to play is necromancer.. revives, corpse explosion, bone spirit, poison nova, curses.. and not just most fun, if i am to run a hardcore char, it would be a necromancer.. but.... back in the day, we don't do that.. we just play for fun and nothing else  :P  .. so i don't do that in TQ either although i hate dying

as for the topic, it really depends on the items you have.. if you have archmage's clasp I'd totally go for permanent battle standard.. i haven't played a battlemage yet but i have an assassin and when i switched tactics from a traditional fighter to permanent battle standard, it's really improved and is so much stronger now.. if you only mostly have str items, then of course str/dex build.. but then i don't know why earth.. dream would be better for that.. or the left click only conqueror  :P .. or even hunting

as for leveling up, if it's me i might just finish normal with pure warfare.. or i get earth just for the stats
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Hector

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If you are doing a physical melee build %physical damage is not urgent and flat burning is not needed.

That is exactly why I asked that question.. putting just 1 point into brimstone gives you a mere 5% physical damage, which is nothing in the earlier parts of the game.. so I'm wondering why you chose to waste that 1 point in that skill at that point of the game.. anyway I think it might be worth it if one maxes the skill quickly and get decent amounts of flat burn damage.. still not needed as you said, but definitely would make difference, especially coupled with prometheus charms at those stages of the game..

Actually its obvious we're talking about the same thing in principle, but somehow it looks like we're defending different sides.. :)

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Ring of flame looks good until you check energy usage. If you can compensate that (puppetmaster necklace), why not?

You are absolutely right.. I didn't consider the active energy cost and no, I definitely can't compensate that, for the moment at least..

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man, I've played all the characters in diablo 2 and my favorite most fun to play is necromancer.. revives, corpse explosion, bone spirit, poison nova, curses.. and not just most fun, if i am to run a hardcore char, it would be a necromancer.. but.... back in the day, we don't do that.. we just play for fun and nothing else  :P  .. so i don't do that in TQ either although i hate dying

Same here... I don't know if you ever have played Soulvizier, but spirit + nature in that was the closest thing to being a necro in the world of Titan Quest.. how I wish it could be integrated into AE :-\

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as for the topic, it really depends on the items you have.. if you have archmage's clasp I'd totally go for permanent battle standard.. i haven't played a battlemage yet but i have an assassin and when i switched tactics from a traditional fighter to permanent battle standard, it's really improved and is so much stronger now.. if you only mostly have str items, then of course str/dex build.. but then i don't know why earth.. dream would be better for that.. or the left click only conqueror  :P .. or even hunting

as for leveling up, if it's me i might just finish normal with pure warfare.. or i get earth just for the stats

I actually considered an assassin since he is the coolest warrior build IMO.. its just that I've never made a battlemage/juggernaut and wanted to try it.. are you serious about just going with warfare in normal :o I don't know man, if it was dream or hunting sure why not but aren't warfare and defense the most troublesome masteries while levelling in normal? It was the case for pre AE if I remember correctly but it might have changed I don't know..
« Last Edit: 22 June 2018, 21:49:53 by Hector »

Offline botebote77

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it was troublesome for me but i realized my mistake.. i ditched my shield too early

edit: i did try UL and SV but it was like 2012 or 13

i don't remember much anymore except that spirit (or was it spirit?) has that thorny skill (not reflect) that comes from underground.. looks like the skill by the bug hero in warcraft 3 (undead?)
« Last Edit: 22 June 2018, 21:59:01 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline mammoth_hunter

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That is exactly why I asked that question.. putting just 1 point into brimstone gives you a mere 5% physical damage, which is nothing in the earlier parts of the game.. so I'm wondering why you chose to waste that 1 point in that skill at that point of the game..
Oh, please, don't talk like an ultrahardcore minmaxer. This is Titan Quest. There is no such thing as "waste one point" ever since level cap was raised again. "Waste 20 points" - um, perhaps that matters. But then the link I posted has ~60 unused points  :). If you don't spend it there, perhaps you can max earth mastery 1 level sooner. From an ultrahardcore minmaxer perspective neither skipping it nor taking is important.

1 pt works with + all skills, you might get very far into the game before you decide to spend more. Single pointers are usually just that. Either they work at one point already, or they work with + skills.


Offline Hector

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i don't remember much anymore except that spirit (or was it spirit?) has that thorny skill (not reflect) that comes from underground.. looks like the skill by the bug hero in warcraft 3 (undead?)

I'm trying to remember that thorny skill but I can't.. maybe the one in the occult mastery which looked a little bit like seal of fate with some kind of ADCtH (the spell damage used to give you life back while damaging the enemy or something like that)..
I think skeletal warrior summons and that undead rhino type monster were added much later into the mod so you didn't get to play those versions.. it was such a beautiful experience...I'm sure you would have loved it..

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Oh, please, don't talk like an ultrahardcore minmaxer. This is Titan Quest. There is no such thing as "waste one point" ever since level cap was raised again. "Waste 20 points" - um, perhaps that matters. But then the link I posted has ~60 unused points  :). If you don't spend it there, perhaps you can max earth mastery 1 level sooner. From an ultrahardcore minmaxer perspective neither skipping it nor taking is important.

I'll give you a short example though I doubt you would consider it as crucial but here goes anyway;
Yesterday, just before reaching the Minotour Lord boss, I had precisely 1 skill point to spend.. I was considering battle standart but then I was like: "Nah I'm just doing fine, there is still time for that" and put that point into Crushing Blow to drop trash mobs even faster.. then Minotour Lord came and beat the crap out of my battlemage.. in the end I didn't die but it wasn't a fun fight in the slightest.. I got that point out of Crushing blow and put it into Battle standart and faced that mofo again.. and guess what, that tiny 1 skill point made a huge difference and I killed him without breaking a sweat..
Its a matter of time and circumstances we're in, I guess... Mathematically, I don't know much about the game and definitely I'm not an expert but I believe every skill point is important regarding leveling in Normal..

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