Author Topic: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?  (Read 887 times)

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #15 on: 10 August 2018, 22:05:05 »
While I sort of agree, doing something that the game doesn't allow you to do (in this case, choose the bonus so it fits better your class) is cheating, by definition.
amen

now this depends on the player.. just like I've said in my earlier post, when i was doing that in diablo 2, i was happy.. when i moved on from diablo 2, i felt like "yeah I'm a pro".. but many years later, I'm like "I'm nothing more than a cheat"

edit: in TQ, bonus is just bonus.. you don't complete an artifact because you want the bonus

in most of the showcase videos that I watch, the only thing I see is a char with blinding speed and godly attacks, decimating anything in his/her path without breaking a sweat..
don't know which showcase videos those were but the most part of this game is just like that, right? stomping everything and making you feel very strong.. until you find a certain situation which takes you back to earth.. then all those feeling of being very strong goes poof ;D

edit: then the game reminds you that you died  >:D
« Last Edit: 10 August 2018, 23:01:41 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #16 on: 11 August 2018, 10:59:23 »
Now, I understand how people may find that completion bonus system flawed and unfair, since many bonuses are generally useless. For example, who is crafting Blood of Ares for a mediocre poison DoT?

I guess this is the grindy part of TQ. Every ARPG needs one. PoE has six-linking. GD also has his set of artefacts.

TQ also allready has it completely ridiculous set system.

Think about it: art-wise the Theban Set is probably the game's most iconic gear, yet no character is ever going to wear the full set. It's a five piece level 10 set after all, by the time you've got it completed, you'll have several characters at level 40+ at least, which much better gear available, even for newly made characters. Are we expected to endlessly farm Normal Nessus on our first character? In fact, by the time the set is completed, even that character will be overlevelled, just from farming.

Now, there's nothing to be done about that, but it also goes a long way for artifacts. Legendary artifacts require greater artifacts, that require lesser artifacts; it's not uncommon to need about seven recipes plus relics and charms to craft a single legendary artifact. Some legendary artifacts require even more recipes. If you add completion bonusses to that, ot does not just become grindy to craft the same legendary artifact over and over again,.. it becomes pretty darn impossible.

edit: in TQ, bonus is just bonus.. you don't complete an artifact because you want the bonus

This is precisely why I feel the completion bonus system is not working as intended. It's a bonus, it should be something extra, that just adds something the player doesn't really need. Yet, the "bonus" is such a major feature on some items, that it can make or break the quality of the item. To have mediocre Poison DoT on Blood of Ares, where you actually have a better chance of getting +20% Physical Damage or +25% Attack Speed, does not make the game challenging or grindy, it is simply pure horse piss, and sure as hell can't be considered a "bonus".

Then finally there's the point that where set item droprates are as they are, the game does actually allow you to tamper with completion bonusses, by reloading an earlier save, similar to how it allows you to store more items like the Vault, by creating mules. If you consider this to be cheating, fine, but then please be consistent: no X-max mod either.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #17 on: 11 August 2018, 11:12:04 »
TQvault, if used only as storage can't be cheating

xmax, urmmm this is the curse of xmax.. people who play xmax just can't go back to vanilla

edit: besides, how can xmax be considered cheating? it's a mod that increases difficulty.. I've read some people say it makes the game easier because you level faster and get more loot.. lulz.. well in full xmax you definitely get overlevelled but it's still definitely harder than vanilla.. and you don't play xmax to farm.. playing xmax untwinked is pure hell.. if you play xmax you have to make sure you have good items already.. unless you don't mind dying 200x
« Last Edit: 11 August 2018, 11:35:52 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #18 on: 11 August 2018, 13:37:44 »
the game does actually allow you to tamper with completion bonusses, by reloading an earlier save
come on now dude.. this is something you do outside the game.. this is tampering save files
« Last Edit: 11 August 2018, 13:39:18 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline WNG

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #19 on: 11 August 2018, 13:49:31 »
Are we expected to endlessly farm Normal Nessus on our first character?

I don't get it. Why would you even need the full blue set to proceed?

Also, regarding Xmax. I wouldn't consider Xmax cheating, but anyone who played it may confirm that only the bosses fights are actually harder. A player can easily stay in the mob zones to level up faster than usual and go back to the normal game and 'wreck' everyrthing in the way. This isn't cheat, but just a non-honorable way to play the game.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #20 on: 11 August 2018, 14:02:30 »
but anyone who played it may confirm that only the bosses fights are actually harder.
not always true.. examples: jotuns, cyclops, even the grizzly bears in act 5.. the wolves that deal bleed because DoT from different monsters stack.. undead warlocks that cast spell breaker.. yggdrasil area where mobs deal thorns, lamia beastmen, act 3 dragonians

also, some minor bosses don't get multiplied by 3.. examples:
the spider that guards the mirror quest in act 4, the anteok boss also in act 4, all monsters in secret passage, the bosses in primrose
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline WNG

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #21 on: 11 August 2018, 14:06:48 »
but anyone who played it may confirm that only the bosses fights are actually harder.
not always true.. examples: jotuns, cyclops, even the grizzly bears in act 5.. the wolves that deal bleed because DoT from different monsters stack.. undead warlocks that cast spell breaker.. yggdrasil area where mobs deal thorns, lamia beastmen, act 3 dragonians

also, some minor bosses don't get multiplied by 3.. examples:
the spider that guards the mirror quest in act 4, the anteok boss also in act 4, all monsters in secret passage, the bosses in primrose

Right, I had lost interest in Xmax long before I got the DLC. I can picture those zones to be harder, yes.
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Offline Hector

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #22 on: 11 August 2018, 18:54:01 »
When its about something you don't use / benefit from;

Quote
doing something that the game doesn't allow you to do (in this case, choose the bonus so it fits better your class) is cheating, by definition.

When the opposite is the case and serves you;

Quote
besides, how can xmax be considered cheating? it's a mod that increases difficulty bla bla bla.........

Quote
Also, regarding Xmax. I wouldn't consider Xmax cheating,

Quote
This isn't cheat, but just a non-honorable way to play the game.

Now lets just carefully examine/compare the words in bold form........ Is it clear enough now or should I explain even further??

Don't dance around the words just for them to support your own ideas guys.. you're only tricking yourselves..

If we are going with "definitions", then x-max is something the game doesn't normally allow you to use as well.. just like TQ Vault.. and yeah, it does make the game easier in the long run, just like any cheat does..

"IMO"s and "to me"s doesn't matter in this case cause mine sure as hell didn't, did it?..

I'm always in for pure and straight to the point discussions.. and would happily accept other ideas over mine when this is the case..

But not this one...

About Theban Set;

I got excited for it went ahead and wore every piece when the char's level was 14-15 something.. and what do you think happened?

This so called iconic, heroic gear fell short even before going into Act II.. it simply could not hold even against maenad groups.. terrible stats, not much impressive completion bonuses and not enough offensive power.. you are much better of with just wearing the helm and greens on other parts.. it is just sad.. I don't know what else to say...
 
« Last Edit: 11 August 2018, 19:39:39 by Hector »

Offline WNG

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #23 on: 11 August 2018, 19:25:48 »
Well, I made a very basic definition, and could be elaborated much further. It implied actions that altered the game in sort that you are giving yourself an advantage or do not submit yourself to the game's rules. You think selecting your completion bonus is fine? Good for you.

Even then, everyone has its own definition of cheating. We definetly have a different point of view, so let's not bother with this anymore.

Now, regarding Xmax, you quoted out of context. Out of your quotes, I would think that Xmax is a cheap way to play the game. No, this is not what I think.

Xmax is meant to increase the challenge of the game. The game because much tougher when numerous bosses charge at you. Playing with this mod enabled from the beginning to the end is honorable.

Using Xmax to boost your experience points quickly to go through parts of the game you can't go through in normal play is a cheap way to play. That is not honorable.

Now, TQ Vault. It's a nice program wich spares you the pain to look for stuff across many mules. But it has some funcitons I'd call "nasty", such as the ability to reroll your stats with better numbers, with infinite chances to try and with no penalities.

You will say that according to my definition, TQ Vault is a cheat. Yeah, granted. But when you consider how TQ is a game that relies a lot on collecting stuff and keeping it for further use, and that the available storage is absurdly low, I understand how such software is necessary for QoL.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #24 on: 11 August 2018, 20:12:53 »
cheating is something you do to make things easy for you right? xmax is the opposite.. xmax is something you play just so you can continue playing the game because you've reached the point where you find vanilla too easy.. but if you want to call it cheating.. fine by me.. but if there is no xmax, i wouldn't be playing the game anymore.. if i play untwinked, there would be some challenge.. but i didn't spend all those hours days farming and not use them at all.. and the first release of AE, i lost all my saves so i had to play self-found.. it was vanilla.. and quite honestly, i find playing xmax twinked to be more fun than playing vanilla untwinked.. but hey we all play to have fun.. that's why we play, right? so yeah we can play how we want to play.. in WNG's case, he merely explained the definition of cheating, which i find entirely correct.. in my case, i just said what i felt when i used to cheat in diablo 2.. there was a time when i felt playing it clean.. but diablo 2 is way too old now.. so I'll do it in TQ instead

Spoiler for Hiden:
i wanted to say this somewhere but don't know where that people won't take it the wrong way.. I'll just say it here.. xmax is a fast way to improve.. not because of the loot but because it forces you to do well.. if you can beat 3 Typhon, 1 Typhon would feel easy.. of course to beat 3 Typhon you need good gear.. which brings back to what i said earlier
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #25 on: 12 August 2018, 01:55:24 »
you can also say it's something some die hard TQfans do because they (we) know it's time to let go and move to other games.. but somehow it's too hard to let go of the game :)
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #26 on: 12 August 2018, 10:05:55 »
cheating is something you do to make things easy for you right? xmax is the opposite..

Partially.

3x Legendary Typhon makes the game more difficult for sure, but there are also a lot of areas where it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether you're facing 5 trash mobs or 15, and we all know the best loot drops from Bonepiles and Satyrs. So, XMax does making farming a fair bit easier. If it's containers you want, then there's also 3x Megalesios, which is not too hard.

I'm not saying Xmax is cheating, I'm just saying that the statement that anything that let's you do something the game doesn't allow you to do, or let's you do something the game only allows you to do in a roundabout way, is cheating, while simultaneously running Xmax, doesn't make any sense to me.


Offline botebote77

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Re: Artifact Completion Bonusses,.. imbalanced?
« Reply #27 on: 12 August 2018, 10:57:08 »
bonepiles and containers don't get multiplied.. and i think the best source of loot is secret passage and hydra.. but enough about that.. this is something i want to tell you, and Hector, and WNG and anybody whose experienced enough: just try xmax :)

i play x3.. playing 3x Typhon or Hades for the first time will make you say "fuck shit hell fucking shit" :)  but then, when you get used to it, try vanilla.. it will make you say "pfft"

this is no joke or exaggeration.. i can swear by this  :)

Spoiler for Hiden:
mimer
cerberus
hydra
surtr
manticore
minotaur lord
fafnir
golden boar
demon bull
loki
  ^-^
« Last Edit: 12 August 2018, 11:16:20 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

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