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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« on: 10 May 2019, 21:19:34 »
So I loaded some of my old characters in new expac and tried most of level 40 skills at legendary act 4, in Rhodes or Hades palace.

Rune - tested with rune weapon dragon hunter.

Rune storm - haven't seen it trigger any effects, feels useless.
Rune field - creates full screen of rune mines. For some reason skill didn't level past rank 15. The idea is decent but runic mines damage in endgame is too low, it takes 5-6 runes to kill most basic trash mobs with flush out debuff running.

Rogue - tested with poison trickster and phys/pierce corsair.

Blade barrier - creates 3 spheres around you that do flat pierce and bleed damage and convey weapon effects. Not very useful for a poison build as there are better ways to convey poison. For a pierce build the damage seems low to bother. Maybe on pierce brigand with study prey it would be ok as a fancy AOE.

Poison mayhem - throws 5 poison bombs, one where you click and the others at random. The idea is good but I wish it was more predictable.

Dream - tested with vitality diviner and ritualist summoner.

Psionic beam - makes psionic touch pierce when used with a staff. I wish it just did more damage instead or had AOE on every hit, piercing isn't that good to waste points there.

Dream image - summons a doppelganger that attacks with your weapon. Damage is apparently physical as stated in tooltip, and low. Doesn't convey pet damage from gear. Bad for damage, but can hold aggro. But doesn't last long. I wish it dropped one of your items like the original.

Spirit - tested with vitality diviner.

Soul drain - an extension of life drain line that does vitality damage in a nova around first target it hits. Damage is good with deathchill up close but less good at range. But it stuns target. Overall useful as half damage half crowd control skill akin to volcanic orb.

Soul vortex - steals life and mana in a radius around you (lifeleech damage). Can heal very quick and with deathchill can kill mobs. Skill is good and does what is supposed to do.

Nature - tested with ritualist summoner

Earthbind - screen wide immobilization. Overall useful for a character that needs crowd control. 300 something flat poison damage suggests it may be useful for a poison caster.

Sylvan protection - castable ability for nymph that looks like short range wave and does like earthbind. Thats very narrow in utility for those who want nymph to do more things. Can only be unlocked after putting one point in nature wrath which is a major downside for me as I don't want nature wrath.

Storm - tested with a bow/spear lightning sage.

Lightning dash - movement ability like take down. No idea what is it doing in storm mastery, I'd rather asked for more reliable crowd control there.

Arc discharge - does not make wisp do any notable damage on a non-summoner when maxed. No idea how it would fare on a dedicated summoner.

Earth - tested with a physical battlemage.

Meteor rain - rocks fall in a large radius around you in random locations, physical and burn damage. Damage is poor on a physical caster for an ability with such cooldown. Inability to target makes it even worse, if it misses, you'll be waiting some 40 sec to try again.

Fire nova - don't have an appropriate fire caster in legendary to test this.

Hunting - tested on a slayer.

Spear dance - 360o arc attack with low damage, chance of fear and slower attack. I don't think this is useful, spear builds can often kill foes faster than they would scare them, and if they can't kill them, chance of fear won't help.

Finesse - extensio of the call of the hunt skill. Adds 10% and 600 flat offensive ability. This is madness, hunting does not really need more OA with flush out to crit so its a group buff mostly. Some other masteries may need OA more, say rogue.

Defense - tested with melee corsair.

Perfect block - 100% damage absorption for 1.1 sec duration. Mirror of ereoctes like skill, but isn't it too short?

Unyielding phalanx - summons a line of elysium ghosts that attack all mobs that come in melee range with them. Deal decent damage on non-summoner and I don't know if they convey pet damage from gear. Overall fun and efficient but weird for defense mastery.

Warfare - tested with physical battlemage.

Slam - flat physical damage wave-like spell that does damage in a straight line and stuns. Damage isn't good on a physical caster and there is also warhorn for stun so dubious overall.

Lasting legacy - Increased duration for ancestral horn summons. Haven't tested it as I don't have appropriate character for it but should be useful for a dedicated summoner.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #1 on: 11 May 2019, 08:03:05 »
not about the skills but i think this falls under this topic
(i don't have the DLC yet, just to clarify)

with the mastery bar now up to 40, more stats should be available to characters.. why am i not reading that anywhere? (steam, reddit, gog, this forum)

what that means:

1) more health and mana
2) hybrids should be easier to build now

not that hybrids would be more popular now.. it's just how things are.. (but i wonder if the devs had any hybrid beta testers)

can anyone post how many stats are added in each mastery? and are monsters stronger now? because if not, they might've just made the game easier.. giving us free stats while monsters stay the same
i are TQ titans
i are many people

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #2 on: 11 May 2019, 11:34:23 »
The patch notes are vague and do not detail all changes but after playing like two hours I did meet a few dangerous mobs in the expansion. I have a character with 6500 hp and 60% pierce resistance, but no physical resistance, caster armor, no projectile evasion or block, and no blocker CC and just not very good ranged CC. There are giant squid mobs with bows in one the first locations that feel very much like Machae, you survive by chugging potions, and running straight into a pack of more than three is dangerous. Then they are "giants" and have huge hp pool on top.

Regarding stats, each mastery gives its own hp, mana, and stat points per point invested. Numbers for each of them might be available somewhere, or you may go to titan calc and get them there, then multiply by 8.


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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #3 on: 11 May 2019, 17:25:26 »
Actually, all archers are nuts in the new area, you absolutely need either passive defense or reliable strategy against them.

Environment and story are good until the last two out-of-place bosses. Devs still recycle mobs on industrial scale though like someone needs to tell them this is actually not okay, and base game never did that.

And the skills... most of them are terrible with few exceptions. This comes from poor utility, or damage, or both. Some are rendered useless by inability to control them, then there are temporary expensive summons with no damage potential. For people to use the skill it has to do something in their build, its not just one more button to press for extra oumph once in awhile. Base game wasn't exactly famous for good skill design, but it is usually better to stay with the old ones and ignore the new ones.

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Offline legowarrior

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #4 on: 13 May 2019, 17:03:16 »
Sadly, I haven't had a chance to try out the new skills, but the ones for Nature and Rogue look like an excellent fit for my Illusionist.  Extra Poison skills are always welcome. 

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Offline Il_Dottore

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #5 on: 13 May 2019, 21:56:27 »
Let's start by saying that having extra skills doesn't hurt but a total overhaul like the one in  the Underlord Mod would have been better. Some ideas are good, but they have been done in a crap way.
Rune

Rune storm - (bugged? it seam a good skill for C C and nothing more.
Rune field - creates full screen of rune mines (too much imho)

Rogue

Blade barrier - The visul is orrible, it seeam a cheap copy of "ring of steel" from grim dawn.

Poison mayhem - too much radius and unpredictable trajectories make it not very useful. it seams whit many of this new skill they think more about the radius than the damege itself

Dream

Psionic beam - useless without a staff. An AOE on every hit will have fit it perfectly.

Dream image - Maybe the damge is low but at last the aggro is useful. Not perfect but good.

Spirit

Soul drain -it will be perfect if it was swapped place with vision of deat or generally put in a lower level. It havent the feel of the ultimate skill, not like soul vortex or meteor rain.

Soul vortex - Nothing to say here.

Nature

Earthbind - too wide screen wide immobilization. Useful for c c.
Sylvan protection - A smaller version of erthbind it will be better it they will have made a skill like volley from hunt.

Storm

Lightning dash - Totaly out of place, no idea way they make something so out of place here. Maybe a skill with ice like a blizzard that do frostburn damage and prevent movement (ike freazing blast but in a radius or in a wave will have fit better).
Arc discharge - For wat i have see it is like "chain lightning" only for the wisp.

Earth.

Meteor rain - A natural choice for a pyrommancer, fit well but the random radius and the long cooldown it make it not so much good. A radius of about 9 meter whit more fragments and it will have be perfect.

Fire nova - Good for deal damage in a similr way like storm surge but when you choose it and whit fire instead of lightening damage.

Hunting

Spear dance - ?.

Finesse - Lower defens or chance to avoid attack will have make a better skill. The extra OA is pointless.

Defense

Perfect block - Duration too short and with -100% attac speed it make it a good skill on paper but bad in game. If you make that you cant attack no one at last make it the duration long enough for run away or give it for a shorter duration (4-5 sec) a 100% damge reflectd.

Unyielding phalanx - If instead of a line they will have been made into a circle like "300" it will have been a perfect emergency skill equal good for attach and defense. Similar to briar wood or something like that.

Warfare

Slam - A skill like this can be very good in narrow passage like cave or tomb when the enemey run at you in a straight line.

Lasting legacy - Increased duration for ancestral horn is good expecially with so many player alway traing to find items with - recharge time for have it always turn on. This in some measure will solve the problem.
« Last Edit: 13 May 2019, 22:07:39 by Il_Dottore »

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Offline legowarrior

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #6 on: 13 May 2019, 22:19:16 »
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 

I will definitely grab it for my Paladin later on just to try it out.  At the very least, it will give me some more mobility.   And that's something to keep in mind, it does increase your speed.  So, it's a defensive and offensive skill. 

Poison Mayhem is something I'm looking forward to myself.  It should be great for taking on huge swarms of monsters.  Just something extra for my illusionist to do, besides of just summoning wolves and setting up traps. 


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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #7 on: 14 May 2019, 01:11:13 »
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 
One problem with lightning dash is that most melee masteries have their own movement skill and do not need another one urgently. I wouldn't be building rogue + storm as melee, so the only exception would be rune + storm. This lightning dash would better fit rune then.

Slam in warfare is a single hit for 500 base damage with long cooldown, which translates into something like 3,5K on my battlemage. Thats around 1/3 of engame common mob's hp. Its one of the problems of some others new skills too - a single hit with long cooldown, in endgame its not enough unless the skill is really strong like seal of fate. So far that battlemage learned to use it on archer packs, followed by eruption, but stun is also too short. If it can't have better damage, it could have longer stun duration.

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Offline icefreeze

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #8 on: 14 May 2019, 04:22:40 »
Lightning Dash don't have recharge time, so no cool down, and can cast continuity:
https://youtu.be/9BxI55rk5aQ?t=1774

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Offline Il_Dottore

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2019, 07:38:52 »
Lightning Dash Is a LMB Skill. Like onslaugt, rune weapons ecc. But its too up in the tree. In a lover level It Will have make more sense.

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Offline Mammothmkii

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2019, 11:05:29 »
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 

I will definitely grab it for my Paladin later on just to try it out.  At the very least, it will give me some more mobility.   And that's something to keep in mind, it does increase your speed.  So, it's a defensive and offensive skill. 
 

Yeah lightning dash is one of my favorite additions!! My Prophet is now using it to jump between enemies as LMB instead of psionic touch.

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #11 on: 14 May 2019, 17:47:29 »
Lightning Dash Is a LMB Skill. Like onslaugt, rune weapons ecc. But its too up in the tree. In a lover level It Will have make more sense.
I fear it lacks much more as an lmb skill, than as movement skill. It is supposed to be a skill for hybrids which had always been sort of problematic in TQ. In rune mastery autoattack skill, rune weapon, this is addressed by stacking crazy intelligence buff (up to 140%), flat elemental damage (50 I think) and full physical to elemental conversion. And still, rune weapon does not always get to satisfactory performance as a melee autoattack skill.

Now compare it to lightning dash, it has what, 10 flat lighning damage on it, and some character evasion buff.

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Offline Il_Dottore

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2019, 19:20:42 »
the main problem is that they dont change the skill tree but simply add some new one. Some skill are good, but not that good. Other (the new one i meen) seem put in the wrong place. Cam on, how many of you will reach the max level (aside for stat point) just for pick a skill like lighting dash or the wisp power up or erthbind? When i play i usually choose a tier and a relative skill that i want absolutley. (defense = colossus form, Earth = volcanic orb and so on and usually the skill in the ultimate tier is a must have but the new one in most case they seem just there for justifay the new tier leve itselfl. In my hopinion it was way better if the will have made a complete rework like the one in underlord. Same maestries but with new\improved skill. Right now it seams thet the dev simply add a new tier for justifay the upper level limit.

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Offline 1cec0ld

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #13 on: 14 May 2019, 23:07:51 »
Some thoughts from a high ranking source:

Quote
Arc Discharge - more damage for Storm Petmasters
Dash - make Storm cool for melee

Meteors - Large AoE for Str builds
Fire Nova - Large AoE for Int builds

Dream Image - Fan favorite skill (Doppelganger), usable by all builds
Psionic Beam - Enable staff attack builds without Spirit

Soul Drain - enable Vitality Damage focused mages
Soul Vortex - life draining for non-int characters, esp. melee (bomb when surrounded)

Phalanx - add pets to Defense
Active Block - reward twitch skills in otherwise passive mastery

Earthbind - mass one-click crowd control
Sylvan Protection - Pet-based crowd control

CotH - Finesse - support melee hunters with thematic buff
Spear Dance - multihit & fear, compensate for shortcomings of spear builds

Poision Mayhem - keep PGB interesting in late game
Blade Barrier - weapon-effect based area traps, synergy with poisons

Lasting Legacy - enable Warfare petmasters
Line Slam - some ranged CC capability for Str warrior

Runestorm - crowd fight skill for everyone, esp. str melee
Runic Minefield - keep Mines interesting late game, for int chars

If some skills feel uninteresting to some builds that is ok. While on one hand they should be widely useful, the intention with others was to create new ways of plaing a class that the usual builds don't usually follow.

As such the lightning damage on Dash, for example, is mostly for effect.

About earth, those skills really are the "fight large crowds" skills the Mastery promises, with both being similar because of Earth's Int/str duality. But that is why the fire one is a more common, lower damage "slow burn" and the meteors the effect-laden nuke.

The idea behind Psi Beam specifically was to compete against Ternion Attack, while having a different feel to it. And generally supporting Staves in Dream.

Soul Vortex is designed to turn around a bad situation in melee. Numbers scale with your level.

Perfect Block is a trade between a short duration and a long cooldown to RMB away any dangerous boss attacks more often. This isn't meant to be used every other fight.

Blade Barrier - The main feature here is that you put your weapon enhancements, including bleed procs and Mandrake, on an AoE spell. PBAoE buffs like Soul or Rune vortex currently can't do that, and we already have those.
Closest alternative here would be to also make it a targeted line much like the Phalanx. Or perpendicular.

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #14 on: 15 May 2019, 20:43:10 »
Some thoughts from a high ranking source
Nope, its not a good way to reference, please provide a source so I know whom I'm talking with.




Quote
Dash - make Storm cool for melee
Like I tried to explain above, making storm cool for melee requires considerable effort in general, and a single not overpowered skill won't cut it.

Quote
Meteors - Large AoE for Str builds
Tried them again, 10 attempts, 7 misses, 3 hits. Can't kill yotuns though can kill melinoe. Thats how a single hit skill you can't aim would always perform. 40 seconds to wait after missing and I can't do anything to aim better. Can't find a use for it in a build. If its for damage, such cooldown and random target location makes it so I can't rely on it in anything.

Quote
Psionic Beam - Enable staff attack builds without Spirit
It is going to take more than piercing to compete with ternion. Crate tried that wit ranged cadence and it is still not quite there. Usable with pistols and rapid attacks, not going to do much with slow rifles without a legendary set.

Quote
CotH - Finesse - support melee hunters with thematic buff
A standard dexterity based piercing build that uses CotH for pierce buff can easily have ~600 OA from dexterity alone by late game (or 1000 with some effort). 700-800 with a single veteran's weapon. With a debuff that removes half of mobs DA its the same as having 1400-1600 OA. Easily enough to consistently crit anything in the game.

Now, 700 OA buff is crazy overpowered on its own. But considering how hunting does not need it to crit consistently, its rather pointless in this mastery.

Quote
Spear Dance - multihit & fear, compensate for shortcomings of spear builds
There are no shortcomings that spear builds have, inability to multitarget can be compensated with a second mastery skills and aren't even that much needed: spears are one of the simplest ways to play because of how strong they are, you generally just one-hit-kill everything. I wouldn't put fear on it if its supposed to be AOE - you would want mobs to run at you, not away.

Quote
Poision Mayhem - keep PGB interesting in late game
PGB is already very viable in late game if built around. Adding more projectiles isn't bad, but without ability to target them even roughly they are good for nothing.

Quote
Blade Barrier - weapon-effect based area traps, synergy with poisons
This is too slow for when mobs are already in melee range.

Quote
Line Slam - some ranged CC capability for Str warrior
If it is crowd control its duration is too short, with mobs getting stun resistance on higher difficulties its hard to keep them within other spells range.

Quote
Runestorm - crowd fight skill for everyone, esp. str melee
Hitting this button doesn't visually do anything. For people to use a skill in a build it should have some guaranteed effect they can rely on. See flash powder - if it does not confuse, it still always slows and fumbles drastically.

Quote
Runic Minefield - keep Mines interesting late game, for int chars
Rune mines damage in late game is pathetic.

Quote
Blade Barrier - The main feature here is that you put your weapon enhancements, including bleed procs and Mandrake, on an AoE spell.
Throwing knives can do that at a screen range and that is a huge advantage over blade barrier.

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