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Offline Tauceti

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[Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« on: 27 January 2019, 21:28:08 »
« Last Rated on: 02 February 2019, 07:59:34 »
When theorycrafting a build for a mage (ternion or caster), the 1st question to answer is:

Do I spend attribute points on strength and how much ?
  • Yes, this is an hybrid mage: a caster with a warrior armor ! 500+ strength is needed to wear high armor   
  • No, all the points in intelligence for a big pool ! Minimum points in str and dex to wear mage armor
Maybe there is a 3rd way, somewhat exotic...

This possibility arised in this thread initiated by @botebote77 https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=786.msg8138#msg8138, with the existence of the MI master seer robe:


This high armor (int required) is dropped by the Overlords. It's an important piece of armor since 40% of the melee damage input is reduced by the value of amor on chest. Ideally, the best MI or green armor is veteran like: that is with physical resistance, %DA and %CTAP. But the veteran prefix is not allowed for a mage according to TQ-DB:


Actually the master seer is so weird that it seems to be a high-end warrior armor but with int requirement. This was confirmed by farming the overlords and checking the ground: one can find similar white and yellow dvergr robes ! here is a example of a green version: a resistant dvergr robe of the glade:


And finally, with a little more patient farming, this gives what was expected:

A veteran high armor for a mage, woooot   ;D

The ideal armor indeed would be a veteran master seer, it should be possible on the paper but i never seen any.

On the other hand this one (lvl 11) is handy for leveling early:


Loaded with some -%reduction requirements on gear, a toon could wear this armor as soon as lvl 20 i guess and this means an easy leveling up to legendary.

Finally, the same trick should be possible on the valkyrie boots (as noticed by @mammoth_hunter)


Note that this gear is not supposed to compete with Ragnarok high-end gear, but as far as i am concerned, my toons spend more time in leveling  ;)

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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #1 on: 28 January 2019, 00:33:18 »
well actually, i put points on strength.. as you know, almost all my characters now are mages.. i find that overcommitting to reduced requirements just makes things harder.. instead 1 or 2 is enough.. putting some points on strength, then equipping %int items like the owl or a simple socrates ring is almost the same

2nd, there is another side to the coin.. reduced requirements is usually for keeping str to as low as minimum.. but what if you want all your stats as high as possible instead of keeping 1 stat low? this is usually for physical + elemental damage mages.. this is also true for hybrids.. in which case hale + socrates, or symbol of the polymath are good options

3rd, I've recently discovered that of the mammoth suffix does not exist for int items.. and many mages like elementalist or thunderer has incredibly low HP.. of the mammoth gives way more HP than of immortality

offtopic: don't know if many people already know this: %energy regen is almost useless without flat energy regen.. this can easily be checked with a dream mage.. compare energy regen on the 2nd page with and without ToC

edit: conclusion: just put points on str.. for those who would want to try playing a mage, you'll be surprised at how much easier it is to build your mages if you save your stats and put points on str if you have to.. just don't overcommit and 9 times out of 10 it will be much better than those old glass cannon all int characters that everybody loves (or hates)
« Last Edit: 28 January 2019, 01:58:11 by botebote77 »
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Offline Tauceti

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #2 on: 31 January 2019, 23:52:48 »
I recognize that finding a third way is maybe difficult between
- a pure int mage with high dps but squishy as hell,
- and a hybrid mage wearing a high armor but with lower int pool.

Trying to make some calculations and to understand differences, i lack of data.

When your hybrid setup is finished, (say lvl 75 ?)
- what's the number of strength, intelligence, dexterity points have you spent (roughly). Or, another way to get these numbers, if you take one of your hybrids, what are your stats naked ?
- what are your stats when you wear your end gear ? (in order to understand how much %str, %int, %dex you have favored on your hybrid char) ?
- what is the total armor value and in particular what is the chest armor value (again roughly speaking) ?

Regarding pure int mages (either ternion or casters),
- To your mind, what would be the number of deaths above which we can say this setup (build+gear) is a glass canon mage with and  without Xmax ?


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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2019, 00:16:38 »
difficult to answer so I'll just post pics of my chars and take what you can.. it will be later in a few hours

my casters, although they have str, i prefer not to call them true hybrids because true hybrid is more difficult.. gotta have attack speed, life steal and OA too

safe to say: i used to play my casters with no str too.. but they're not good except if you don't mind lots of deaths.. i prefer them the way i build them now
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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2019, 14:26:09 »
ok here

all of these are at least xmax x3 viable.. i don't play full xmax because my 4gb ram couldn't handle it.. i get lots of slowdowns, freezes, and sometimes even crashes

with mid to high str investment:

summoner
Spoiler for Hiden:


this is one of my best chars and i really like this.. this is a physical + fire build.. survivability comes from briar ward abuse

haruspex
Spoiler for Hiden:


i also like this char.. so easy to equip i can come up with lots of different gear combinations.. downside is no long range cheese skills.. but i have high DA, CtAP, lots of CCs and monster lure abuse.. monster lure with high CDR is so ridiculously good for mobs if the player is used to the skill.. could've(should've) done this no deaths if i was serious.. i took it all the way to 3 surtrs without dying and without cheesing after all

elementalist
Spoiler for Hiden:


this is the character i entered then withdrawn in the xmax HC challenge.. this is part of the reason why this post got delayed a bit.. i wanted to take it to legendary 1st before i post this.. it's still a WIP but i have 28 unspent stat points which in all likelihood will all go to int as well as all succeeding attribute points.. i plan to post something of the different builds (some ridiculous) i tried with this char.. see the helm impenetrable of the mammoth, that helm gives me +851 health.. and yeah just like what i said in my previous post above

dreamkiller
Spoiler for Hiden:


this is like 75% trapmaster, 25% mage.. but the stats are evenly spread so i'll include it anyway

skinchanger
Spoiler for Hiden:


this one is not a mage but i can call this a true hybrid.. it's a really tanky build maybe it's unkillable against any non boss mobs.. briar ward + damage absorption combo


with zero to low str investment (i did not include the naked pics because str is negligible anyways:

sorcerer
Spoiler for Hiden:

i also really like this char but i really feel like i could've built/equipped this much better if i spent a few on str.. the only other good shield i could equip was rings of the rhine but for that i had to swap my socrates of immortality for a hale of might ring.. not worth it but i still tried it with neiths will and boots of the allfather (fore more DA and to cast lightning bolt more often).. but i went with this ring instead and took traps instead of LB
Spoiler for Hiden:
although i'm still not sure if it's better but 3 loki got easier so i stayed with it

prophet
Spoiler for Hiden:
well, just look at my SB cuffs.. if i had enough str i could've gone with a better affix.. although i only did this gear combination because i gave its archmages clasp and aphrodite's favor to my other characters.. but i still think Archmages Clasp + Aphrodite's Favor + Visor of the Shadowlord + Lykaeon Malleus + Priams Gate would've fared better

thunderer
Spoiler for Hiden:
this one is different because it's rune

i can't speak about ternion builds because of lack of experience and data.. but you are forced with a staff so it's not my cup of tea.. just not my style

for the characters i've finished ragnarok with, just look at my sig
« Last Edit: 01 February 2019, 14:44:12 by botebote77 »
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Offline Tauceti

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #5 on: 01 February 2019, 20:32:45 »
Thanks Bote  ;)

I will take time to process all these data.

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Offline tqrunner

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #6 on: 02 February 2019, 08:06:28 »
This is a bit off-topic, but why do the Valkyrie boots have the highest MS/Reg bonus on Normal difficulty (at least according to tq-db.com)? The screenshot above seems to be in line with that. Did a TQ dev miss his morning coffee at some point? :)) It really ruins the item for me because it bugs me as all hell!

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Offline AlcyonV

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #7 on: 02 February 2019, 17:27:23 »
This is of course a typo in database… that becomes a bug. This is a long story in TQ, and with MI items especially. Old fanpatchs...and patchfixes... and updates all worry about that.

The question is : can we hope new updates by the devs to fix it ? Or is it now the community's job ?


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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #8 on: 03 February 2019, 06:09:28 »
yep.. seem to be a slip-up by the devs

these are the in-game values.. the one with the lower armor is normal version and the other legendary

Spoiler for Hiden:


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Offline Tauceti

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #9 on: 11 February 2019, 01:09:02 »
When looking at your setups, Bote, i expected more differences in armor value between str/int and pure int builds. There is a difference but not that much.
So i tried to understand why.

Apparently your main objective is to get the str requirement for a good shield, like Pelaron or Priam. On the other hand, your str/int setups need heavily of casting speed and/or CDR which can be found mostly on intelligence gears. This could prevent a full str gear for a higher protection (correct me if i am wrong). In these setups, intelligence, although important  isn't that crucial because the toons deal physical+elemental or with the help of traps.

Regarding your pure elemental casters like Prophet or Thunderer, i was pleased to see that you choose the high intelligence route. In particular, i tried a thunderer a few months ago, but he was so squishy that i stopped my tests with this char. So i am curious of what you feel about your thunderer.

On the other hand, Ragnarok brings also solutions with 2 great mage sets: the Wodan and Freyja' sets. The first one, when completed, gives an armor value comparable to what a melee toon usually wears pre-Ragnarok. The second one, Freyja, weither we like it or not, gives a very high DA. Therefore mages now have tools to survive better. These 2 sets convince me that the full intelligence route should be favored as soon as intelligence is the main stat. The first step is then to be able to survive from the early levels up to L55, the level requirement of these sets. In that case, the master seer gear could do the job.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #10 on: 11 February 2019, 02:23:42 »
so you think a pure int build is better? that's ok.. I'm not going back to that old style.. I've been through both  :))

I'm not really a fan of armor

i have another dreamkiller (int + dex), little higher int but with 1k DA.. and the survivability is night and day

regarding thunderer, it is damn squishy that's why i changed styles mid epic.. more on that later.. have to leave and got things to do
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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #11 on: 11 February 2019, 06:38:20 »
Regarding your pure elemental casters like Prophet or Thunderer, i was pleased to see that you choose the high intelligence route
I'm not  ;D .. at least for the prophet i wasn't.. when i was trying to equip it i was getting frustrated i was wishing i had more str enough to equip visor of the shadowlord.. it's hard to explain you just have to go through it.. i myself think i lack experience even though I've played many already coming back from TQIT

regarding thunderer, i originally built it as a dual wield thrown weapon.. it was so damn squishy.. equipping a shield helped but the damage got nerfed a lot.. epic Typhon(3x) was the last straw.. i got my ass handed to me several times.. so i tried my theorycraft icesharder that i myself doubted at first.. and surprisingly it worked much better.. just with a few tinkering

first wall of defense is menhir wall.. but you know it's still dangerous even with 80% CDR.. that's why i tried to get ultimate max energy armor.. what's good is ice shard and energy armor both work best with energy cost reduction.. energy armor actually disappears within seconds but it gives me enough time to run back and cast another menhir wall (edit: then cast another energy armor just as fast)

iirc equipping a shield is easier/safer but imo dual wielding persephones caress and lykaion malleus makes it way cooler

the other dreamkiller i have is converted to elemental build.. it's so squishy i don't even want to play it anymore.. i call it experiment gone wrong..  it's the one i showed on my cheating surtr vid

i also have vids of my thunderer on my playthroughs thread

edit: not trying to sound like an ass.. but to anyone who disagrees, that's ok.. like i said, I've been through both and I'm not going back to that old style.. and i really wish people try it first both with str and without str.. if only one route is tried, i say the conversation is over before it even begins    :)
« Last Edit: 11 February 2019, 12:05:36 by botebote77 »
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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #12 on: 11 February 2019, 19:56:57 »
I feel what i said is clumsy. Bote, the debate is still open  :) i rely on your experience.
So what do you think of the Wodan and Freyja sets, do you see something lacking ?

Actually what i proposed is not a claim, but more a hope. But you are right: enough theorycrafting, i should give it a try and check incoming difficulties.
Wodan and Freyja drop rates seem fair enough and i hope to complete one of these sets in a while.



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Offline botebote77

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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #13 on: 11 February 2019, 20:46:45 »
no there is no debate.. because like i said I'm not going back to that old style anymore.. so there is no winner or loser   :P

what i think about wodan and freyja sets? i haven't completed both yet.. but i think corselet of freyja, brisingamen, and gungnir are stupidly OP items that deserve a nerf.. i only have corselet of freyja and i held on not wearing it for about 2 or 3 months until my elementalist.. elementalist is just too hard to gear so i gave it my forbidden jutsu

but the wodan set is weird.. what makes it worth completing if the completion bonus is that shitty? freyja bonus is better but why attack speed? maybe it's intended for a ternion build? i don't play ternion so i can't comment for a ternion build

i tried a defiler test char before full with very good items.. i then tried it with a real char (can't remember what).. then reality vs theorycraft: the journey getting there still makes str worth getting.. and even at high level already, one handed weapon + shield still makes it easier to gear and makes it more defensive.. it doesn't look like it but I've always been defensive minded.. that's why i don't like close combat

edit: and i don't like pelaron.. don't know why but it makes things more difficult for me
« Last Edit: 11 February 2019, 21:35:43 by botebote77 »
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Re: [Tips & Tricks] How to get a veteran chest armor for a mage
« Reply #14 on: 12 February 2019, 00:29:17 »
Quote
what i think about wodan and freyja sets? i haven't completed both yet.. but i think corselet of freyja, brisingamen, and gungnir are stupidly OP items that deserve a nerf.. i only have corselet of freyja and i held on not wearing it for about 2 or 3 months until my elementalist.. elementalist is just too hard to gear so i gave it my forbidden jutsu
Yep, maybe the corselet of Feyja needs some adjustment... On the other hand casters need to survive better and TQ devs have to find a balance between squishy casters and OP items. I will avoid the question since i don't have tested this set yet.

Quote
but the wodan set is weird.. what makes it worth completing if the completion bonus is that shitty?
Yeah, you really dislike high armor value for a mage ;D
This set is ...unexpected ! New ways, new builds.
When building my runesmith, i was lacking of such gear (armor+flat intelligence) and i had to take the strength route. This set should help for great intelligence runesmith i guess, both melee and casters, as well as good intelligence berseker and dragon hunters.

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