Author Topic: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation  (Read 196 times)

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Offline wolpak

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Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« on: 10 October 2018, 16:29:52 »
*Originally this was going to be a question and I started posing it as such, but I decided to get some answers myself and I am pretty shocked (pun intended) at the results.

In terms of damage output solely through the skill trees, Thunderer has a significant advantage over Stonespeaker with respect to elemental damage and transmutation.  Below the comparison, I did some actual testing.

From what I have read with transmutation, 90 elemental damage is split evenly among the three types, fire, cold and electrical.  Thus, if I had 100% Fire Damage, the damage output would be 60 fire, 30 cold and 30 lighting for 120 total damage (ignoring any other modifiers), right?

At max levels (not ultimate to keep numbers easy), from what I can tell, Earth gives
5-8 fire (average 6)
100% fire
100% burn (which is not factored in with transmutation)
21% physical (not factored)
33% chance 89% physical (not factored)
chance 178% burn (not factored)
chance 178% fire (about 60% on average)
(on a side note, does Volativity give a 33% chance of all 3 of those affects at once, or one of those affects goes every hit, but a 33% chance for each one?)  Based on other tooltips, I'd say it's 1/3 all or nothing, but I haven't tested that)

So a 90 damage elemental attack would have (30 + 6) (100%+60%) fire + 30 lighting + cold = 78 fire + 30 lightning + 30 cold = 153.6 total damage

At max levels storm,
35 cold
19-75 lighting (47 average)
+52% cold
+52% frostburn (not factored)
+76% lighting
+76% electrical burn (not factored)
+100% elemental (from wisp)
+30% reduced resistances

So a 90 damage elemental attack would have 30 (100%)  fire + (30 + 47) (100% + 76%)  lighting + (30 + 35) (52 + 100%) cold = 60 fire + 212 lightning + 162 cold = 434 total damage

I actually decided to test this after I wrote it out and made 2 characters, cheated them up to level 8 for the masteries and rushed them over to Sparta so I could test against the targets (btw, birds are the most relentless enemy, those bastards).

So, with a base 50 intelligence and strength, a bronze knife does 12-13 damage with nothing else. 

For the Stone Speaker, I maxed out Earth and Rune, maxed out the entire Rune Weapon Line, Maxed out Earth Enchantment and Volativity.  Those are the only two abilities that would affect damage for a Stone Speaker with full transmutation (which I did not have, it was at 66%, but that was good enough for testing purposes.

Stone Speaker damage ranged from 280-320 with a max of roughly 375.  The range is likely due to crits (I probably should have used a thrown weapon) and the 375 may have been volativity but that also increases physical damage, so it's fairly rough.

Thunderer with a full maxed Rune Weapon and Storm Nimbus line:
380-450
When I got the wisp to trigger (you need to be in battle)
530-720

When you figure in full transmutation, the difference will be even more.  That is pretty significant that the Thunderer would do about double the damage solely based on transmutation.  This doesn't even include Squall which doesn't work on targets as they appear to not have any resistances to reduce.  Obviously there are other things in the masteries to make them valuable, but Storm seems to get the most out of the elemental change from transmutation due to it focusing on 2 elements and a pet that boosts elemental damage.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #1 on: 10 October 2018, 22:06:19 »
you only considered damage though.. my thunderer was originally meant to be dual throwing but literally when i reach act 3 of any difficulty, i start dying.. and i already have maxed menhir wall that time.. that's why i respeced to longer range (granted i played it x3)

you also did not factor chakram of the sun which gives +2 to earth.. chakram of the moon weirdly gives +2 to dream

basically any 2 good throwing weapons will do enough damage when paired with rune weapon.. even if you don't have earth or storm
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Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline wolpak

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #2 on: 10 October 2018, 22:35:16 »
Well, I only considered transmutation, which is damage.  I didn't say which was better, just which got the most benefit out of it.

Clearly survivability is going to be gear dependent.  If I am going to add in legendary weapons, I could go with Mjolnir or Chakram of the Moon or even Blessing of Moirae. 

My point is that Storm synergizes with the elemental conversion better than earth does.  Even Storm's attack spells synergize better with Rune Weapon as they will benefit more from the +int than Earth. 

And it's significantly better as scaling continues on the large base damage.  I think it's a major oversight that Earth Enchantment does not increase the base fire damage from level 1 while both Storm's elements increase each level. 

Offline botebote77

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #3 on: 10 October 2018, 22:51:39 »
yeah.. i mean earth has core dweller and heat shield (15% physical res)

edit: but I'm biased i still like the reduced energy cost synergy of ice shard and energy shield.. and runeword feather and persephone's caress :)
« Last Edit: 10 October 2018, 22:54:26 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #4 on: 10 October 2018, 23:44:35 »
I think this game was never supposed to be balanced. Its very old single player almost adventure-like arpg.

Offline wolpak

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #5 on: 11 October 2018, 02:22:23 »
Wait, masteries are different?  HuNu?

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #6 on: 11 October 2018, 04:55:20 »
It's true. What makes the difference in damage even 2X larger is that the BiS thrown weapon, Mjolnir, has roughly 350 base lightning damage (420 if max roll), which benefits only from Storm Mastery, not Earth.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #7 on: 11 October 2018, 21:01:48 »
The reasoning behind this is sound. Conveniently, I've just started a new game with a Thunderer, because thunder and lightning beckons to me just as much as fire does, and because my Stonespeaker found my second Mjolnir, which seem worth dual-wielding for a Thunderer.

Stories aside, I agree that Thunderer will benefit more from Rune than Stonespeaker in general, due to the fact that Earth employs quite a bit of physical damage, which scales with strength.

However, there's one thing that shouldn't be overlooked, but easily is: the Stonespeaker is a burn damage god. One of the few classes able to make good use of Brimstone, I always recommend maxing that - between Brimstone, Volativity, a high intellect, and any bonus to Elemental Damages and Total Damage you might have, your burn damage will be through the roof. It's something Storm doesn't have to my knowledge, and while you're most likely continuously hitting your enemies, the burn damage really is significant, especially when you hit multiple enemies with Runeword: Explode, or when you're fighting bosses which require a hit-and-run approach.

I'm not claiming it makes up for the Thunderer's advantage, but my Stonespeaker (albeit admittedly at a really high level) dishes out pretty absurd amounts of burn damage and it shouldn't be overlooked.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #8 on: 11 October 2018, 21:14:24 »
the only DoT of storm is ice shard.. but since AE, static charge also boosts EBD.. thunder strike has EBD

if both are played dual wield throwing, storm has more DPS.. but earth offers better survivability
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline wolpak

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #9 on: 11 October 2018, 22:38:44 »
Rune: Freezing Mines has Frostburn.

Storm: Freezing Blast has Frostburn
Spell Shock has Electrical Burn

Offline botebote77

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Re: Stonespeaker vs Thunderer and Transmutation
« Reply #10 on: 11 October 2018, 22:48:54 »
those are negligible in legendary though (the damage)

I've tried them all :)
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

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