Author Topic: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut  (Read 1455 times)

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Offline botebote77

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Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« on: 12 August 2018, 08:48:20 »
My last 2 characters (spellcaster thunderer and elemental archer dreamkiller) have given me some headaches on gear optimization :))

I'm quite content with my thunderer but my dreamkiller, although it's still on epic, i can already see I'm gonna have more headache when i get to legendary :))

so to keep my sanity, I'm planning to make a hybrid melee/caster juggernaut.. although it's a hybrid, my experience says hybrids are easier to gear than unconventional builds.. I'm quite sure I'm gonna bore with pure melee so I'll get volcanic orb and eruption

now here is why I'm making this thread: when i play hybrids, i either go str + dex first or int + dex first.. not start it as a hybrid as early as lvl 1.. skills won't be a problem i think because i can just respec and i don't think I'll have any difficulties before i get to delphi where the oracle first appears.. but stats are a different matter because i can't buy them back.. and it's been long while since i last played earth.. so my question: do i start as str + dex first or int + dex first? anyone can give their opinions but

@CrocMagnum
@Firebrand
@Benitot

i want you guys to chime in :)

i don't have many early game items but i remember i have:

amulet with + 1 to earth
fell blade
oath breaker
oracle's wreath
normal green helm of the magus (int req)
hallowed normal green helm (int req)
and the cheat weapon * although i might not use this except probably if shadowmaw spawns

edit: this is the * i meant
https://www.tq-db.net/category/staff
i can't link to the weapon probably because of the name..
so i just linked to staves.. first weapon on the list

right now I'm leaning towards int first either flame surge or volcanic orb.. I'm starting this as a lvl 1 character and as always, xmax x3
« Last Edit: 12 August 2018, 09:09:06 by botebote77 »
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #1 on: 12 August 2018, 09:30:26 »
I have a str/dex battlemage en route in late epic. That guy is pretentious, physical eruption is much stronger than DR/TR. Started pure melee all warfare until ~level 25 of course. If you plan to use melee at all you have to become good at it as soon as possible, its going to be your main way of doing things. I don't know if physical earth spells are good enough to replace it, actually in late normal and early epic they are super strong. What I know is they also cost too much energy so you will have to chose between being melee and having CDR and mana cost reduction. Won't probably have enough gear slots and stats for both. Either melee with occasional spells or caster with a mace.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #2 on: 12 August 2018, 09:44:56 »
pure str + dex is out.. it's too uhhh what's the right word? mundane? playing safe?

this is not a knack on your character.. just not my idea of fun

and i think i won't need 80% CDR.. maybe about 40% would be enough

edit: or not.. i might get 80% if it proves to be more fun
« Last Edit: 12 August 2018, 09:52:13 by botebote77 »
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Offline CrocMagnum

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #3 on: 14 August 2018, 12:48:35 »
... (Juggernaut) so my question: do i start as str + dex first or int + dex first? anyone can give their opinions but

@CrocMagnum
@Firebrand
@Benitot

i want you guys to chime in :)

Man! You're haunted by Hybrid Builds (says the guy who wrote an Avenger Hybrid guide). :P

To answer your question I never had much success with a Juggernaut, I've tried two of them and gave up on both, way before the ending. Allow me to explain:

As far as I'm concerned the Juggernaut is one of the hardest Hybrid to build. You could make pure melee and use Earth as support (so not a Hybrid anymore) but even then you'll have a hard time putting things right. Here're the problems you'll face:

Basically when you build a Hybrid you'll try to have a characters that can make 2 opposite things: Physical + Spells, but:

You'll hardly find any synergies between Earth and Defense. The only thing worth of notice is the armor bonuses you can gather:

Armor Synergies

Battle Awereness (base skill) + Rally (conditional: you have to cast it) + Quick Recovery (% Armor Absorption, conditional too )+ Stone Skin (Earth Enchantment tree)

Even with all these bonuses to Armor I never achieved much, my Juggernauts always struggled damage-wise. To be fair I really don't know if all these Armor bonuses are additive of multiplicative, so it would be nice if a Veteran could clarify this,

Stat Distribution

Here's another headache, so you have STR, INT, DEX. With a Hybrid Juggernaut you'll be very tempted to spread your Skill Points into those 3 Stats.

And knowing you, botebote77 :), you'll probably be gunning for Stonebinder's Cuffs in the Minoan Labyrinth at the first opportunity.^^ An quite frankly I would do the same, Hybrids badly need this. But:

Every point you put into DEX [for Stonebinder's Cuffs] is less points you can allocate into INT, at least that's how I see it,

About your question on when to allocate Stats:

Personally I always dump points into INT late (around Epic to be clear). Why? Because I always play untwinked (self-drop) and only allow myself to transfer Artifacts ( 'cos it's time-consuming), so I never know what kind of items I'll get. Sometimes I cannot get Archmage's Clasp for instance. Another crucial point: I feel when you're serious about going Hybrid INT>DEX. In other words INT takes precedence over DEX.

I also put points in INT late because all these bonuses in % start to make sense later when you have items and skills that give you a noticeable bonus.

One last thing about Defense:

Defense has not much to offer to Hybrids, unlike Hunting:

- Study Prey+Flush Out: Hunting has a strong debuff that make your Spell way much damaging,
- Call of the Hunt boosts your Spells too,
- Herbal Remedy is good for your Pets: HP Regen and Poison Resists,
...

In other words Defense+Earth is not to my liking because it's like you're building the 2 Masteries separately, Defense for Physical and Earth for Spells, without real synergies. Not to say Defense is bad for Hybrids! I'm just saying Defense+Earth is not efficient. For instance:

Defense+Storm [Paladin] is way better: the basic thing to remember is that most Storm Skills do Stun Damage, so you'll benefit much more than any other Class from the Skill Concussive Blow.

Note: Still I remember Benitot, with his excellent Juggernaut The Master Armorer Guide, who used this Class to good effect.


« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 13:18:41 by CrocMagnum »

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #4 on: 14 August 2018, 12:59:34 »
yep that's why i mentioned Benitot

man your explanation makes me wanna run a hybrid juggernaut.. ohohohoho I'm not scared to build hybrids  ^-^

ok but hmmm well I'm also thinking str+int caster summoner

edit: summoner as in nature + earth but I'll play it mage
« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 13:08:46 by botebote77 »
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #5 on: 14 August 2018, 13:37:27 »
Paladin pffff... if you happen to have these three items maybe its worth a try. Such pretty shiny crutches for a class.

Who can tell me how much damage should a fire eruption of a generic int caster do to be useful? Per boulder? With and without volativity? 2K? I remember 100% recharge build could do with less in IT but there is no 100% recharge now.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #6 on: 14 August 2018, 13:40:16 »
the armor in stone skin, battle awareness, and rally are all flat so they should be additive.. the mutiplicative part in armor is armor absorption

but you're right, where will i get reduced resists? Benitot hasn't updated his guide yet

edit: mammoth i have megingjord and mjolnir.. they're over rated i think.. not that good
« Last Edit: 14 August 2018, 13:52:45 by botebote77 »
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #7 on: 14 August 2018, 20:11:24 »
Who can tell me how much damage should a fire eruption of a generic int caster do to be useful? Per boulder? With and without volativity? 2K? I remember 100% recharge build could do with less in IT but there is no 100% recharge now.
That question is too obscure, I see

Thats physical eruption damage without giant's tooth mace
Spoiler for Hiden:

With one such mace
Spoiler for Hiden:

And with two of them
Spoiler for Hiden:

Two other rare weapons have +50% physical damage each.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #8 on: 14 August 2018, 22:00:30 »
wow you have giant's tooth

actually I've tested eruption before on a test character and i can also confirm just pure strength also deals very good damage.. it just lacks the coolness factor  8)
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Offline Firebrand

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #9 on: 14 September 2018, 20:01:01 »
Sorry I'm responding only now; I have been occupied with other things. I only recently started to visit the forum again.

I have tried strength-based Earth characters, but never got too far with them. Early-game, they seem to work well. Going pure strength with Earth characters seems to have one flaw; you're missing out big time on the damage-over-time component, which has been made pretty big with Anniversary Edition.

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #10 on: 14 September 2018, 21:07:38 »
I actually finished building that battlemage Link

Physical eruption and VO need ~300-400% physical damage increase, half of which might come from strength (1200 strength). It is not obligatory to use Giant's tooth for that but it makes things alot simpler. Melees need to worry about more things than damage. They need OA, higher DA and armor, and if you can save on gear slots dedicated to damage by equipping one big ugly mace its awesome.

On per hit basis 1,5K is enough for act 4 and 5 legendary. 2K is very good, 1K is low. If recharge is low - with maximized recharge 1K might work just fine.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Hybrid Melee/Caster Juggernaut
« Reply #11 on: 06 January 2019, 00:32:37 »
but you're right, where will i get reduced resists? Benitot hasn't updated his guide yet
late comment nonsense.. why was i wondering where to get reduced resists when it's fairly simple to reduce enemy resistances through weapon attacks? and archmages clasp will let you semi-spam VO and eruption.. or at least eruption

anyway, i still don't feel like playing.. but I'm glad that Benitot's build should still be good.. +1 to Hybrids

edit: elem damage is really good if you're just able to strip enemy resists.. just look at rune weapon with flush out
« Last Edit: 06 January 2019, 00:36:09 by botebote77 »
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