Author Topic: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith  (Read 3050 times)

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #30 on: 11 July 2018, 20:54:52 »
Sure, developers are strange  :)

I believe its the mentality of all or nothing that is wrong. Invulnerability ftw or not touching the skill. The skill offers you a small-to-average boost to defense, which might be critical, or it might not. With changes to make all these caps to stats like block too the game made a grim dawnish turn. And look at that game, if it gives you hp skill, its 25%, not over 100%, 5% DA not 100% DA. Small increments to sum up into decisive advantage. A small thing you say? Excellent, might be just the thing that tips the balance to your favor.

Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #31 on: 11 July 2018, 21:01:34 »
Quote
i actually don't understand why you think a skill that greatly reduces block recovery isn't good.. peace Hector, I'll just offer my own take.. a shield blocks all types of damage even DoT.. the bad side is they have 2.5 to 3 seconds of cooldown.. quick recovery reduces that by 81% at ultimate max.. that would be 0.475 to 0.57.. if you can block incoming damage every half second, that would be really good.. now a shield can only block the amount of damage listed on the description (%chance to block x damage).. if you expect it can make a shitty shield very good, that is not what it does.. or if you expect you are now immortal once you have it up, that would be expecting too much.. or if you want it to be very good at lvl 1, that also would be expecting too much.. it is not a one point wonder.

i haven't played defense in AE/R but it doesn't look like it has changed much.. the most i got any of my defense chars in TQIT was epic and even there i felt quick recovery's worth.. i played a conqueror on legendary but the character was not mine.. even for a conqueror, maxed quick recovery was noticeably helpful.

You are right about DOT damage types botebote and I somehow knew someone would bring this up.. while I'm glad you did it, it doesn't change the fact that QR won't protect you against real dangers (ok, except Yougai to a certain degree and the Troll mages maybe).. have anyone ever experienced a situation like facing Toxeus and benefiting from this skill during that kind of a fight? hell, even against a cyclops, what can it do that armor, resistance, DA or anything else can not? yes, it does what it says but only in situations you're already prepared against.. I have never suffered any serious damage due to not having this skill up.. it has been always something which already bypasses blocking mechanics entirely..
Lastly, no one should expect from any skill to completely protect them from harm, I'm aware of that.. but for instance, Rally means something and actually does something even against enemies like Toxeus, right? It doesn't make you immortal, but it gives you a solid protection, a second chance, a reality check at the last moment, whatever you wanna name it.. that kind of benefit is something QR does not have in situations like these.. that's all I'm saying.. 
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 08:37:04 by Hector »

Offline Hector

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #32 on: 11 July 2018, 21:16:03 »
Sure, developers are strange  :)

I believe its the mentality of all or nothing that is wrong. Invulnerability ftw or not touching the skill. The skill offers you a small-to-average boost to defense, which might be critical, or it might not. With changes to make all these caps to stats like block too the game made a grim dawnish turn. And look at that game, if it gives you hp skill, its 25%, not over 100%, 5% DA not 100% DA. Small increments to sum up into decisive advantage. A small thing you say? Excellent, might be just the thing that tips the balance to your favor.

Hmm, that "all or nothing" mentality actually makes sense.. that could also be an evidence on how so many gamers turned into people with obsessive compulsive disorders.. I don't know if its related with today's gaming culture but somehow the system injects a doze of perfectionism into people.. I can't explain it in words right now but it is something similar to what p*** industry trying to do with feti*hist people.. aiming to corrupt troubled minds even more and turning them into "slave" type consumers.. I hope it makes sense  :o   
« Last Edit: 11 July 2018, 21:21:25 by Hector »

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #33 on: 11 July 2018, 23:01:09 »
I don't know where zero sum attitude comes from, but would have thought Titan Quest had these stats like that because its old. "Balance" wasn't common enough to pursue at the time in a single player game.

I'll be going to act 5 legendary with -50% bleed resistance and less than 5K hp now, and without briar wards or menhir walls. Thats where I'd appreciate 100% uptime quick recovery. If I only had it  :(

Perhaps it is not fair that the build that is supposed to be classic defense, heavy armored melee, benefits from it the least. But the skill itself is fine and not broken. It has to do with armor values on heavy armor being almost in the same range as damage blocked on shields. Armor can be improved but "+%damage blocked" stat does not exist, or is it so rare that I do not remember a single item with this. It exists in Grim dawn.

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #34 on: 12 July 2018, 05:27:19 »
I have tried to convince other players in other forums that quick recovery is overrated in current version, but few agreed. So it's glad to see someone who tried and holds the same opinion.

So before we say something is good or bad, I think we should look at the mechanism first, and that is where the problems raise.
The first mechanism is what botebote77 already mentioned, block recovery cap: In AE/R, shield recovery time (or maybe just call it block cooldown) has been capped at 90%, which is 0.25 sec or 0.3 sec.
Personally I think that is the second most stupid change AE made. Obviously the most stupid change is the huge nerf in scatter shot which also has been mentioned above. I am not saying scatter shot is not OP, it deserve some nerf but defenitely not reduce its damage by 80%. To those who think the bleeding damage would compensate, I would like to say that the bleeding damage from scattor shot now does NOT stack with bleeding damage from any other sources. So even undead isn't a problem, this skill is completely ruined. Well I'm a little bit off topic...
What does the 0.25/0.3 sec mean? First, when you face a pack of monsters, with the cooldown in block, you cannot block all of them as you did in IT. Instead you can only block some of them. The higher the number of monsters and attack speed of monsters, the lower % of attacks you can block. Or in other words, the more dangerous situation you face, the less block will help. Second, some boss and hero skills are actually multi-projectiles, although they may not look like so. Without the cooldown cap in block, you can block all of them which means you take literally zero damage. However with that stupid coolddown, you can only block one for these projectiles, which means you take almost full damage.
Based on the decription above it might seems block is OP in IT and should be nerfed. But there is another mechanism that prevented block to become actually OP, and that same mechanism has made block even less useful in current version, which is: you can only block damage that lower than the shield block cap. Any damage that is higher than the damage a shield can block, will simply bypass block and do full damage on you. According to what I learned, that "damage" refers to the number which already calculated all the damage modifiers from attacker's side (in this case monster's), but not defender's resistances, armor and damage absorption. For DoTs, use the "damage per second" number to compare, not total damage. So for example, an attack that would deal 800 damage to you but actually deals 400 because of 50% resistance, a shield with 799 block amount cannot block it. In reality, with good shield in accordance with your progression equipped, it is not so common in IT to find some monster damage that would bypass shield block cap. However, such situation becomes pretty common in AE, since the increase in damage of monsters is higher than the increase in shield block cap, and new purple shields are not so satisfying in other stats so they are generally not used in the first place. So generally speaking, it's good agains monster with lower damage, but do nothing to stronger ones.
To make things worse (or better in certain situations), the system will first roll if an attack is blocked or not. If yes, then check every single damage of that attack, see whether it is higher than shield block cap. Regardless of the result, block is now in cooldown. So it is possible that you blocked, but all damage bypass block cap, nothing happens but your block is in cooldown. It is also possible that a seemingly very high damage attack which consists of several small damage can be fully blocked.
Moreover, for melee attacks, block is checked after crit check. So if it crit, it's the crit damage that wuold compare with your shield block cap. And since the actual block CHANCE is related to DA/OA, it is much harder for a character with low DA to block melee since first you have less chance to block and even if you block the crit damage is very likely to bypass it. On the other hand, a character with high DA is much easier to block due to more chance to block and the reverse-crit. Now that go back to the similar conclusion that has already occured twice: when you are less reliant on block (you have high DA), block performs well; when you really want block to help you (you have low DA), block performs poor.

To conclude, the whole block mechanism works better on smaller monster pack, lower enemy attack speed, less damage of single attack, and higher DA characters; and work poorly or totally doesn't work on opposite situation. That says, block will makes you safer when you are already not in danger, but it will not likely to save you (although sometimes it will) when you face real challenge.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #35 on: 12 July 2018, 07:01:32 »
tholuneve, your mechanics contradicts with this

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=148217054

Quote
The good news is that your shield comes into play after armour and resistances are taken into account.

has that been changed in AE or ragnarok? if so, that would be really bad.. but i have not read anything in the changelogs

as whether it is overrated or not, i cannot say because i don't know how other people see this.. it is not an immortality skill but it definitely isn't useless.. and as I've said earlier, you will still need a good shield

regarding scatter shot scaling with bleed.. i did some testing a long time ago and i still remember a bit from it.. i am inclined to agree it does not scale with other bleeds like anatomy.. i am not 100% sure with this but i am inclined to agree with you based on my tests.. but the weird part is it seems to scale with dex although you need very very very high dex for it to be noticeable on legendary.. i got it to about 1500 before i saw a bit of improvement (lolz).. casting study prey flush out makes it more noticeable though

i once said that the nerf should be about 50% or something close to that.. definitely not 80%.. the real nerf it got is the fact that bleed does not stack.. i mean stacking attack speed and then the damage is bleed.. hitting a monster with 2 or more fragments is almost the same as hitting it with 1, it just resets the duration and get the bleed to the highest damage but it will not stack.. the 20% pierce is very little to notice
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Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #36 on: 12 July 2018, 07:53:25 »
tholuneve, your mechanics contradicts with this

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=148217054

Quote
The good news is that your shield comes into play after armour and resistances are taken into account.

has that been changed in AE or ragnarok? if so, that would be really bad.. but i have not read anything in the changelogs

as whether it is overrated or not, i cannot say because i don't know how other people see this.. it is not an immortality skill but it definitely isn't useless.. and as I've said earlier, you will still need a good shield

regarding scatter shot scaling with bleed.. i did some testing a long time ago and i still remember a bit from it.. i am inclined to agree it does not scale with other bleeds like anatomy.. i am not 100% sure with this but i am inclined to agree with you based on my tests.. but the weird part is it seems to scale with dex although you need very very very high dex for it to be noticeable on legendary.. i got it to about 1500 before i saw a bit of improvement (lolz).. casting study prey flush out makes it more noticeable though

i once said that the nerf should be about 50% or something close to that.. definitely not 80%.. the real nerf it got is the fact that bleed does not stack.. i mean stacking attack speed and then the damage is bleed.. hitting a monster with 2 or more fragments is almost the same as hitting it with 1, it just resets the duration and get the bleed to the highest damage but it will not stack.. the 20% pierce is very little to notice
That's not my mechanics, honestly. That's the result tested, written and confirmed by "ancient" players in my region. If it is incorrect, it would be horrible. And I am pretty sure they have been retested.
Regardless, even if I was wrong on that one, the conclusion remains. It's not just theory, but also actual testing results. It's not hard to observe the damage that you cannot block in AE, regardless of the sequance of block and resistance.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #37 on: 12 July 2018, 08:14:20 »
titanquest.wikia also says it happens after resists

http://titanquest.wikia.com/wiki/Shields

Quote
Example

A projectile gets blocked by a shield with a Chance to Block 60 Damage.

If not blocked, after resists that attack would do:

50 Fire Damage from weapon (50 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)
60 Fire Damage (60 = 60 → blocked, 0 damage) and 70 Vitality Damage (70 > 60 → not blocked, 70 damage) from an artifact
111 Burn Damage over 3.0 Seconds from a skill (111/3 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)

it specifically said after resists

there is also this line

Quote
The damage is already reduced by armor and resistances.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 08:18:27 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #38 on: 12 July 2018, 08:36:59 »
i researched more and found this

https://fextralife.com/titan-quest-stat-build-guide-a-general-overview/

Quote
The good news though, is that the damage you must Block is calculated after Armor and Resistances, so there is a much higher chance for you to succeed.

i don't know the credibility of that site though.. it seems written just recently.. dated March 28, 2018
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #39 on: 12 July 2018, 10:58:53 »
titanquest.wikia also says it happens after resists

http://titanquest.wikia.com/wiki/Shields

Quote
Example

A projectile gets blocked by a shield with a Chance to Block 60 Damage.

If not blocked, after resists that attack would do:

50 Fire Damage from weapon (50 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)
60 Fire Damage (60 = 60 → blocked, 0 damage) and 70 Vitality Damage (70 > 60 → not blocked, 70 damage) from an artifact
111 Burn Damage over 3.0 Seconds from a skill (111/3 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)

it specifically said after resists

there is also this line

Quote
The damage is already reduced by armor and resistances.
That's interesting. Everything is exactly what I said except this one. Let me think about how to test it.

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #40 on: 12 July 2018, 11:14:30 »
i researched more and found this

https://fextralife.com/titan-quest-stat-build-guide-a-general-overview/

Quote
The good news though, is that the damage you must Block is calculated after Armor and Resistances, so there is a much higher chance for you to succeed.

i don't know the credibility of that site though.. it seems written just recently.. dated March 28, 2018
That seem to be a rather old one regardless of the date.
IMO, it seems these fundamental things were likely to be tested by a few "celebrities" and spreaded everywhere. Players simply believe in these veterans and never doubted that. So maybe its not helpful to find which one is more convincing. Just test again on current version.  O0

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #41 on: 12 July 2018, 12:34:31 »
tbh i would've believed it more if it was written a long time ago

but of course date doesn't prove anything so i looked at the author: Castielle

i don't recognize the name.. doesn't ring a bell
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #42 on: 12 July 2018, 12:49:49 »
decided to read a bit more

Quote
Players can reduce the amount of damage that their Armor “lets through” by increasing their Armor Absorption. Armor Absorption adds directly with the 66% modifier that all players have by default, so for example if you have +14% Armor Absorption then your modifier becomes 80%
welp there goes the credibility of the author.. he got many things right but not this one.. armor absorption is multiplicative, not additive

well it's unfair for me to say it's not to be trusted but at the very least, what is written there should be taken with a bit caution

edit: and he said each health and energy point gives 40 HP and MP.. those are TQIT values but his pics are ragnarok

welp :-X

edit 2: or she

i wonder why Seidr bones for a templar
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 13:02:08 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #43 on: 12 July 2018, 15:07:33 »
So before we say something is good or bad, I think we should look at the mechanism first, and that is where the problems raise.
The first mechanism is what botebote77 already mentioned, block recovery cap: In AE/R, shield recovery time (or maybe just call it block cooldown) has been capped at 90%, which is 0.25 sec or 0.3 sec.
Personally I think that is the second most stupid change AE made.
You are not supposed to have that. Nothing that resembles invulnerability, or can possibly be made into such, has its place in the game. It is broken mechanics that trivialize the game. Make it too uneven depending on whether you have it or not. Damn, why am I pushing this idea here over and over, like its new.

Instead you get a not-out-of-ordinary defense mechanic that you can add to all the others that you use. Or not, perhaps you do not want it, players shouldn't be penalized for not taking skills because they are press this button to win.

Apparently, though Nordic did the first step of nerfing it, they didn't do the second one, that is balancing the flat numbers against mobs in game. Max damage blocked, but maybe block recovery cap too. When expansion mobs level and stats went up, these flat numbers went out of touch again. What was it in previous time, summoners and their pets? It should require an active dev team willing to do that sort of balancing though, so not sure if Nordic gets to the problem any time soon.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Quick Recovery and the Runesmith
« Reply #44 on: 12 July 2018, 15:35:44 »
want to add something.. how about in the case of ice shard Paladin.. I've only played it in TQIT but I'm sure I'm not the only one and probably some players have played it in ragnarok.. that build would be str + int but keeping str to minimum.. no dex or very little at best.. that also means very little defensive ability.. defense of that build relies heavily on shield block and that is where quick recovery shines.. iirc i had it maxed on that build.. meh i feel stupid defending this skill
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

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