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Messages - tholuneve

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don't want to do any more tests I'm too lazy for that.. i can't even use my PC right now it's having problems.. btw those are not my mechanics too i merely provided links to

1) steamcommunity
2) titanquest.wikia
3) something that i previously debunked

and I've tested quick recovery before and it works.. so it's not useless because the only way it would be useless is if it doesn't work

one thing i noticed about your tests, you used it against empusa but empusa deal AoE damage right? shield can't block that right? it's not that i don't trust you man but i think empusa is not the right monster to test it with.. actually i don't care if it's before or after.. it's not a big issue for me
I tested mainly on Empusa's basic attack, not its aoe skills. But since you mentioned that, it seems that aoe skill is actually projectile+ranged which can be blocked, because when I use another shield (Achilles Shield), I was able to block both Empusa's basic attack AND its aoe skill. It's pretty clear and easy to observe, I stood in the flame, with quick recovery on, and took literally no damage at all.

OK I tested, and confirmed that block happens BEFORE resistance take into effect.
The test is as follows. Find a shield, in my case I bought one from Epic A1, which has 193 block amount. Go to Legendary A5, find these Empusa, kill all but leave one alone. Now unequip everything that grants the resistance of that Empusa does, and see how block works. No block at all.
Now equip everything that grants resistance of that damage type, make it as high as possible. In my case I made my fire resistance 69%, and the damage from Empusa per hit is around 140, which is lower than the shield block amount. Still, as I expected, still no block at all.
If resistances is to work before block, then I should be able to block the attacks from Empusa after I raised my resistance.
The test above is very easy to repeat. You can test it on your own if you don't believe in that.

Consider the test above the damage and block amount is kinda close, I did a further test. This time find another shield with 329 block amount and further raised my resistance so that the damage is around 100 per hit. Still no block.

i researched more and found this

The good news though, is that the damage you must Block is calculated after Armor and Resistances, so there is a much higher chance for you to succeed.

i don't know the credibility of that site though.. it seems written just recently.. dated March 28, 2018
That seem to be a rather old one regardless of the date.
IMO, it seems these fundamental things were likely to be tested by a few "celebrities" and spreaded everywhere. Players simply believe in these veterans and never doubted that. So maybe its not helpful to find which one is more convincing. Just test again on current version.  O0

titanquest.wikia also says it happens after resists


A projectile gets blocked by a shield with a Chance to Block 60 Damage.

If not blocked, after resists that attack would do:

50 Fire Damage from weapon (50 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)
60 Fire Damage (60 = 60 → blocked, 0 damage) and 70 Vitality Damage (70 > 60 → not blocked, 70 damage) from an artifact
111 Burn Damage over 3.0 Seconds from a skill (111/3 < 60 → blocked, 0 damage)

it specifically said after resists

there is also this line

The damage is already reduced by armor and resistances.
That's interesting. Everything is exactly what I said except this one. Let me think about how to test it.

tholuneve, your mechanics contradicts with this

The good news is that your shield comes into play after armour and resistances are taken into account.

has that been changed in AE or ragnarok? if so, that would be really bad.. but i have not read anything in the changelogs

as whether it is overrated or not, i cannot say because i don't know how other people see this.. it is not an immortality skill but it definitely isn't useless.. and as I've said earlier, you will still need a good shield

regarding scatter shot scaling with bleed.. i did some testing a long time ago and i still remember a bit from it.. i am inclined to agree it does not scale with other bleeds like anatomy.. i am not 100% sure with this but i am inclined to agree with you based on my tests.. but the weird part is it seems to scale with dex although you need very very very high dex for it to be noticeable on legendary.. i got it to about 1500 before i saw a bit of improvement (lolz).. casting study prey flush out makes it more noticeable though

i once said that the nerf should be about 50% or something close to that.. definitely not 80%.. the real nerf it got is the fact that bleed does not stack.. i mean stacking attack speed and then the damage is bleed.. hitting a monster with 2 or more fragments is almost the same as hitting it with 1, it just resets the duration and get the bleed to the highest damage but it will not stack.. the 20% pierce is very little to notice
That's not my mechanics, honestly. That's the result tested, written and confirmed by "ancient" players in my region. If it is incorrect, it would be horrible. And I am pretty sure they have been retested.
Regardless, even if I was wrong on that one, the conclusion remains. It's not just theory, but also actual testing results. It's not hard to observe the damage that you cannot block in AE, regardless of the sequance of block and resistance.

I have tried to convince other players in other forums that quick recovery is overrated in current version, but few agreed. So it's glad to see someone who tried and holds the same opinion.

So before we say something is good or bad, I think we should look at the mechanism first, and that is where the problems raise.
The first mechanism is what botebote77 already mentioned, block recovery cap: In AE/R, shield recovery time (or maybe just call it block cooldown) has been capped at 90%, which is 0.25 sec or 0.3 sec.
Personally I think that is the second most stupid change AE made. Obviously the most stupid change is the huge nerf in scatter shot which also has been mentioned above. I am not saying scatter shot is not OP, it deserve some nerf but defenitely not reduce its damage by 80%. To those who think the bleeding damage would compensate, I would like to say that the bleeding damage from scattor shot now does NOT stack with bleeding damage from any other sources. So even undead isn't a problem, this skill is completely ruined. Well I'm a little bit off topic...
What does the 0.25/0.3 sec mean? First, when you face a pack of monsters, with the cooldown in block, you cannot block all of them as you did in IT. Instead you can only block some of them. The higher the number of monsters and attack speed of monsters, the lower % of attacks you can block. Or in other words, the more dangerous situation you face, the less block will help. Second, some boss and hero skills are actually multi-projectiles, although they may not look like so. Without the cooldown cap in block, you can block all of them which means you take literally zero damage. However with that stupid coolddown, you can only block one for these projectiles, which means you take almost full damage.
Based on the decription above it might seems block is OP in IT and should be nerfed. But there is another mechanism that prevented block to become actually OP, and that same mechanism has made block even less useful in current version, which is: you can only block damage that lower than the shield block cap. Any damage that is higher than the damage a shield can block, will simply bypass block and do full damage on you. According to what I learned, that "damage" refers to the number which already calculated all the damage modifiers from attacker's side (in this case monster's), but not defender's resistances, armor and damage absorption. For DoTs, use the "damage per second" number to compare, not total damage. So for example, an attack that would deal 800 damage to you but actually deals 400 because of 50% resistance, a shield with 799 block amount cannot block it. In reality, with good shield in accordance with your progression equipped, it is not so common in IT to find some monster damage that would bypass shield block cap. However, such situation becomes pretty common in AE, since the increase in damage of monsters is higher than the increase in shield block cap, and new purple shields are not so satisfying in other stats so they are generally not used in the first place. So generally speaking, it's good agains monster with lower damage, but do nothing to stronger ones.
To make things worse (or better in certain situations), the system will first roll if an attack is blocked or not. If yes, then check every single damage of that attack, see whether it is higher than shield block cap. Regardless of the result, block is now in cooldown. So it is possible that you blocked, but all damage bypass block cap, nothing happens but your block is in cooldown. It is also possible that a seemingly very high damage attack which consists of several small damage can be fully blocked.
Moreover, for melee attacks, block is checked after crit check. So if it crit, it's the crit damage that wuold compare with your shield block cap. And since the actual block CHANCE is related to DA/OA, it is much harder for a character with low DA to block melee since first you have less chance to block and even if you block the crit damage is very likely to bypass it. On the other hand, a character with high DA is much easier to block due to more chance to block and the reverse-crit. Now that go back to the similar conclusion that has already occured twice: when you are less reliant on block (you have high DA), block performs well; when you really want block to help you (you have low DA), block performs poor.

To conclude, the whole block mechanism works better on smaller monster pack, lower enemy attack speed, less damage of single attack, and higher DA characters; and work poorly or totally doesn't work on opposite situation. That says, block will makes you safer when you are already not in danger, but it will not likely to save you (although sometimes it will) when you face real challenge.

Since I still play with my warden who is now in legendary, I'd like to drop a few criticisms (yeah that's the usual me,eh?) about quick recovery here;

I think overrated should be the most defining word here.. most people seem to praise it like it is a miraculously powerful lifesaving/preserving utility.. I have been experimenting with it recently and I can easily say I have never ever needed this skill even in the tightest spots, dangerously crowded sections.. when you have max pierce resistance, high armor value (together with extra absorption) and great panic skills such as rally, not even the rain of arrows from machae archers make this skill a necessity.. and if I'm to receive serious damage despite having all these, I receive that serious damage regardless of this skill is up or not at that moment..

I think what most people seem to overlook in this case is, almost every attack type that is deadly to even well built chars is something that shields can't block anyway.. huge AOEs, breath attacks, instant life reducers and so on...
Your 17897298347982748% block chance and almost zero recovery time is not gonna save you from the real dangers of this game.. so what is the point of placing this much value to this "mediocre at best" skill and considering it as it is in the same league with bad boys such as battle standard, colossus form or call of the hunt?..

I guess the only sensible scenario where one can actually benefit from this skill is equipping low level, shitty shields (but with other good stats to compensate its inadequate block chance) and raising the low block chance to a decent rate via this skill + focus from battle awareness.. BTW, good luck with building all that CDR while sacrificing other important stats to keep it active most of the time.. ::)

Totally agreed.

I am the one who voted int based. By int base, I mean put some points in dex (usually up to 425 to equip Stonebinder), and the rest in int. Invest as little str as possible.
Since OP already mentioned pros and cons for str/int based Runesmith, I'll only answer several questions raised above. To clearify, I did the theory-craft but my friend actually played it, not myself. So I may have some mistakes in details.

1. Where does the base damage come from?
Transmutation of course. It will transfer 99% (at max+4 level) of your weapon and shield damage to elemental, but the added flat damage in Defense mastery skills will not be transfered as bote already mentioned. The BIS weapon for elemental Warfare/Defense, IMO, is an axe, Ritual Cleaver. Its accumulated base damage is more than 400, if I remember correctly. That also partially solves attack speed problem. Resistance reduction is not in very high priority for this build since you are dealing elemental damage, which is the combination of fire, cold and lightning. Only a few monsters have very high elemental resistances and if they do, you still have the Mega Explosion to deal with them. So I would personally skip Sapros, it's really not mandatory and the reduced max life is not easy to compensate with this build.

2. Is it required to equip str-based armor?
Not necessary, I don't think there is any str armor that you can't miss. But if you wish, you can do that. Armor handling from Defense is not sufficient to equip endgame str amor alone. So at least you need one additional item to reduce gear requirement, or the invested points in str would be too much. One good choice for instance, Odysseus' Armor. Alke and Timaios is not a good endgame choice with the high opportunity cost, but they are decent.

3. Warfare and Defense
I don't think Defense is inferior in terms of int based melee. The only advantage for Warfare is that endgame weapon has much higher damage than shield (as I mentioned above). OA and attack speed can be compensated with good gear. Defense has its own pros. The resistances provided by Defiance and Iron Will are huge, and shield charge gives you advantage over ranged monsters which warwind cannot.

So my conclusion is that this build is pretty viable and not handicapped at all. Yes it is more gear reliant than str based, but when you get these gear, it has higher potential.

Due to the vague description in changelogs and multiple (failed) attempts to fix this bug, I don't really know whether this is a mechanism that devs allow us to exploit or a bug devs can't fix.
As far as I know you can do the same thing with the new artifact: Dvalin Simulacrum. Save you the time and effort to find and fight that rare hero.
And...if what I read about it was true, it's not random. Instead, you can let it drop your gear(s) almost every time. The method is simple: use the same method for the "essense glitch". (Honestly I don't know how you call this bug, it's the one that allow you to have infinite essenses by defeating boss only once.)
I just tested that in weekend, it's not working. I guess this has been fixed in recent patch.

Ha, the infamous tt300.
Never expect anyone mentioned this guy here.

Long story short: for a melee Stonespeaker (or any Stonespeaker, really), I'd go for Transmutation.

I totally agree with this. O0

Long story short.
You need
Note that both items have 50% phy-to-ele. But due to unknown reason it is not shown in the database. But trust me they do have such stats.

so the left side is the pierce damage.. we are computing for the pierce damage? why is there pierce damageDV on the right side then? or is that the raw pierce damage? like if you use a 25% pierce ratio weapon that deals 100 damage, the raw pierce damage is then 25..

heh sorry if I'm making things more complicated.. i use to love solving equations like this back in high school :P
That pierce damage DV has already counted for strength and pierce ratio. I have seen such equation from somebody else's work so I am pretty sure on that.

TQ               :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/650)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-IT 1.17 :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/1000)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-AE         :  (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)

You somewhat...confused by two types of pierce damage: flat pierce damage and pierce damage converted from weapon.
Flat pierce damage does not benefit from any attribute pointes in TQIT, and does benefit from dexterity in AE (1000/100%).
Pierce damage converted from weapon benefit from both strength and dexterity, both in TQIT and AE. The difference is that in TQIT, the multiplier is 500/100% for strength and 1000/100% for dexterity, and 1000/100% for strength and 500/100% for dexterity in AE.

2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?
I believe these are the equations we are talking about.

I haven't figured out yet how these get multiplied to monster stats. So hard to give exact variations. We don't see exact monster health anywhere so it's hard to investigate after these equations.

I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
I am aware that they have several variations.
But they do randomize some stats. If you could debug Game.GAME::Player::OnCreatureDeath method from game.dll and try killing same monster multiple times, you'll see different health and energy each time.
I killed legendary Typhon 3 times with debugging on, and I got following health and energy.
First kill     HP: 124,352 energy: 28,620
Second kill HP: 148,868 energy: 30,528
Third kill    HP: 139,031 energy: 29,574

They have taken utmost care not to display monster health. Even in save files you don't get exact health of the greatest monster killed...
That's interesting.
Provided that you mentioned debug mode although I am not capable of using it, I think you are right on it. So the next step is to find the range of these RNG, and what stats are actually randomized. It would be great help if you can find these.
Regarding player level affect difficulty, I'm still doubtful about it. It's really beyond the experiance of any player or forum I visited. It might because the actual influence is so small that is easily neglected, or maybe they are only used in multiplayer game. Or is it possible that these equations are just abandoned equations and are never used in game?
One interesting thing in these equation is that it seems they could be used in multiplayer game. I know devs of AE said they totally reworked the balance with difficulties and multiplayer game, but since they never announced any detailed patch notes since Ragnarok, it would be glad if someone figure that out.
Plus, maybe, just maybe it does not affect actual stats of monsters, but affect the chance of hero monsters or higher tier monsters to be generated in game?

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