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Titan Quest - Anniversary Edition => Anniversary Edition - General discussion => Topic started by: hansuswurstus on 09 December 2020, 16:26:41

Title: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 09 December 2020, 16:26:41
Hey all,

so I have another question about cooldown mechanics, similar to my old question.

When does the cooldown time from Adrenaline (Defense Mastery) actually start? It seems like the cooldown only starts as soon as the skill stopped but I may be wrong. So which one of these examples is right?

Example 1: Adrenaline triggers (15,5 seconds duration) --> Adrenaline wears off after 15,5 seconds --> cooldown (7,2 seconds) starts --> after 7,2 seconds Adrenaline can proc again

Example 2: Adrenaline triggers + cooldown starts simultaneously --> this would mean that you can effectively have Adrenaline up permanently. I tested it and it didn't work.


Now my next question refers to Cassidy's Conqueror Guide. There, it says:

Quote
Resiliance – 6 points (max). There are those who view this skill as cheap and those who view it as an awesome and essential part of the conquerers arsenal. I’m a member of the latter group. It gives a significant reduction to *all* recharge times, allowing adrenaline to trigger sooner and your charge and other abilities to be used more often.

This is wrong. I tested it and the cooldown reduction only applies to Adrenaline, not to all the other skills (would be pretty crazy if that would be the case). So why does the guide say that? Was it like that in the past and it was fixed?

Thanks in advance for your help!

EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:
Quote
Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 09 December 2020, 19:41:30
Quote
EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:
Quote
Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?

For first, there is no hidden cooldowns. There is just no mechanics for that. Adrenaline skill has 30.0 skill cooldown (skill recharge), and game say this.

Second, for skills with class Skill_PassiveOnHitBuffSelf (like Adrenaline) - yes - cooldown starts AFTER skill's duration finished. So it will run 15.5 seconds, and then 10.8 seconds cooldown. Or with 1 point in skill - it will run 10 seconds and 30 seconds cooldown. (And surely -% recharge affect only on this skill, don't remember how it was in old days.)

For player-triggered skills - cooldown started in the moment of skill activation, it is easily to see. Yes, as always, there is not very user-friendly because there is unclear and quite important difference.

Battle Rage - uses absolutely same mechanics as Adrenaline, so it is 10 seconds of buff duration and only then 12 seconds of recharge. ADD: [It already quite powerful, but if it was only 2 second window of inactivity - then it easily can be counted as semi-permanent even without modifiers. Luckily it is somehow-balanced by adding "resting" window to 12 seconds]
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 09 December 2020, 20:05:48
Quote
EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:
Quote
Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?

For first, there is no hidden cooldowns. There is just no mechanics for that. Adrenaline skill has 30.0 skill cooldown (skill recharge), and game say this.

Second, for skills with class Skill_PassiveOnHitBuffSelf (like Adrenaline) - yes - cooldown starts AFTER skill's duration finished. So it will run 15.5 seconds, and then 10.8 seconds cooldown. Or with 1 point in skill - it will run 10 seconds and 30 seconds cooldown. (And surely -% recharge affect only on this skill, don't remember how it was in old days.)

For player-triggered skills - cooldown started in the moment of skill activation, it is easily to see. Yes, as always, there is not very user-friendly because there is unclear and quite important difference.

Battle Rage - uses absolutely same mechanics as Adrenaline, so it is 10 seconds of buff duration and only then 12 seconds of recharge. ADD: [It already quite powerful, but if it was only 2 second window of inactivity - then it easily can be counted as semi-permanent even without modifiers. Luckily it is somehow-balanced by adding "resting" window to 12 seconds]

Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 09 December 2020, 20:16:51
Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%. :))
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: soa on 09 December 2020, 20:43:13
Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%. :))
The thing is that the value stays the same when you change the game speed.
Is 63,3% for one second in Normal Speed ? Do you count real seconds or ingame seconds ? (ie when a cooldown is 25s, it's ingame seconds, the time in real seconds depends on game speed).
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 09 December 2020, 21:20:08
Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%. :))
The thing is that the value stays the same when you change the game speed.
Is 63,3% for one second in Normal Speed ? Do you count real seconds or ingame seconds ? (ie when a cooldown is 25s, it's ingame seconds, the time in real seconds depends on game speed).

I'm use normal speed in game, in-game skill seconds (cool down duration for example) matches to second ticks of my clocks... and character swing almost twice at 100% (and twice at ~120).

PS: Generally about 63.3% is somewhat what should be somehow tied to animations I guess, but how they exactly connected i'm doesn't know, and doesn't found fundamental differences in animations, they all has 25 frames, all has same frame rate. To be fair, there is 63.3333362 for axe, mace, spear, sword, bow, shield, then 65.3125031 for staff, and 57.0000006 for throwing axes, let's call it basePercentage. Then if we want calculate real weapon speed from weapon's base attack speed, then we should do: basePercentage * (1 + weaponBaseAttackSpeed / characterAttackSpeed)  (characterAttackSpeed is 0.74 defined in male/femalepc01). So, 63.3333362 * (1 + 0.5 / 0.74) = 106.126131 (for knife), and this is should be exact attack speed number which is used in DPS calculation (however UI will never show fraction part for attack speed, it rounded before).

ADD: And from my understanding satyr soldier has 0.65 character attack speed and should have 112% attack speed with knife (without attack speed modifiers which unmodified game has), however i'm never test this.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 09 December 2020, 21:46:49
Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%. :))

How do I know if I have the best weapon equipped? As a Conqueror, should I focus on physical damage or attack speed? What are the most important values when deciding which equipment to use? I noticed I get hight DPS when I equip items with + attack speed, + overall speed and +damage. This game can be really complicated, lol
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 09 December 2020, 22:49:03
How do I know if I have the best weapon equipped? As a Conqueror, should I focus on physical damage or attack speed? What are the most important values when deciding which equipment to use? I noticed I get hight DPS when I equip items with + attack speed, + overall speed and +damage. This game can be really complicated, lol
I'm generally refer to minor inconsistency in naming... nothing more. :)

As for Conqueror, i'm never play it, only used defense/warfare+something combos.

Highest DPS not necessary mean highest efficiency, it is generally just some kind of estimation without taking into account actual monster's armor or resistances. There is no universal equation which will answer what is best. In some cases one weapons better, in some - other. Too slow attack speed is not very good, because reaction on battlefield becomes slower, however is not a bad per se, and generally is kind of preference. Again, defense mastery gives at least something special for maces. I'm love swords, but not always use them. However there is no-brainer choice, if you keep same damage while attack faster - it is better. :)

On other hand, if you focus purely on physical damage - then your attacks should always overcome monster's armor, because armor - is kind of flat damage reduction, which can reduce incoming physical damage up to 0. So if you pick weapons which work at 222% attack speed AND their damage near armor value - it will be 100x worse, than strike them at 50% attack speed with physical damage 2-4x times bigger than their armor, because in last case you will do actual damage, while in first case - you will basically only scratch them until next day and next night. Physical damage + Armor's damage reduction is unique in that sense, because rest of damage types reduced only by resistances (by percentage). Final choice is on you, to take some comfortable weapon which work. (However to be fair, both masteries gives armor reduction, so there is not so dramatical how I'm saying.)

Again, skills is not bad early damage source (and generally crazily OP if speak about Normal and taking into account at which level you can get them): Batter 12/12 - gives flat 75 physical damage bonus, 12/12 battle rage adds 84. Let's compare 75 value with... some top-tier common-quality weapons will do about 200 damage on average. See? Conquer can deal massive bursts of damage with almost just knife (and shield) and just from level 5 (even not constantly, but... it is better get proc and get +80 damage, than constantly do 10-20 damage). So, actual weapon of choice will not matter for relatively long time. (Again, all depends which's your current level.) (Surely there is not necessary to put all points into this skills, i'm just show their power compared to weapons.) Later - weapon choice matter even less, because you eventually will have at least half of this skills or other skills which you like + other bonuses + natural bonuses (like strength), so everything what doesn't looks like staff - generally might work. However, good Conqueror should be able smash heads with staff too... or staves too fragile for this purpose?  :o

Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 09 December 2020, 22:54:05
lol thanks for the detailed answer, knowing those little details is very helpful.  I am happy there is still so much love for this game and I definitely don't regret coming back to TQ.  :D
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: icefreeze on 10 December 2020, 07:12:26
- I think i answered this question in the similar thread on forum already?
- Adrenaline skill start cooldowns right after skill procs, because i get alot Adrenaline's procs right after previous Adrenaline runs out of time from my game.
- Physical dmg from weapon's base dmg using different dmg formula vs Physical dmg from items' bonus or skills.
- DPS is fit with game time count, not real life time count. DPS still have good value enough to refer in many case for any builds relying on weapon attacks builds.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 10 December 2020, 08:51:44
- I think i answered this question in the similar thread on forum already?
- Adrenaline skill start cooldowns right after skill procs, because i get alot Adrenaline's procs right after previous Adrenaline runs out of time from my game.


Hey icefreeze,

this is exactly what was confusing me because you are basically saying the opposite of what lixiss said. I also tested Adrenaline and Battle Rage and it always procced some seconds after it had worn off. Maybe you are playing on very high game speed like me and it just feels like it proccs right after it has worn off? Also, if it would start cooldown right after usage, you would pretty much be able to keep it up permanently (which isn't the case as we both obvserved). Because of all this I am pretty sure it is like lixiss said and the cooldown starts after proc ends.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: icefreeze on 10 December 2020, 10:00:40
@hansuswurstus Oh, talk about "feels", why don't you think that your feeling may wrong first but people?
Does this good enough to prove what i said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7pMSgrEF-Y
I think i will not answer your questions anymore  >:D
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 10 December 2020, 10:21:25
@icefreeze thank you for the video. No reason to get angry though, I just said what I observed from my testing.

@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

I don't care about who is wrong and right, I just want to understand this. Thanks!

Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 10 December 2020, 16:53:05
@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

There is madness on icefreeze's video, and there is hard to say what is happens at all... at least without access to equipment it is impossible to say what happens, might be some item has proc to recharge? Icefreeze's character already has 6.0 seconds cooldown without resilience. At the end of video skill get activated after about 6 seconds, but first time, yep it reactivated almost immediately.


The way which it can be more or less EXACTLY tested, is taking all gear / skills and making simple mod:

1. Turn Adrenaline skill to player-activated skill buff. (To make this skill selectable only).
2. Put this skill on skill bar.
3. *Revert changes back.*
4. Now on skill bar you will have icon, which will reflect when cooldown starts. ;)

Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 10 December 2020, 17:24:51
@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

There is madness on icefreeze's video, and there is hard to say what is happens at all... at least without access to equipment it is impossible to say what happens, might be some item has proc to recharge? Icefreeze's character already has 6.0 seconds cooldown without resilience. At the end of video skill get activated after about 6 seconds, but first time, yep it reactivated almost immediately.


The way which it can be more or less EXACTLY tested, is taking all gear / skills and making simple mod:

1. Turn Adrenaline skill to player-activated skill buff. (To make this skill selectable only).
2. Put this skill on skill bar.
3. *Revert changes back.*
4. Now on skill bar you will have icon, which will reflect when cooldown starts. ;)

Hey lixiss,

yeah, I noticed too that at the end of the video, the skill didn't activate immediately anymore. Very confusing. I tested it myself with Battle Rage and Adrenaline and it always activated again after the same amount of seconds which implied there is indeed a cooldown.

How do you make Adrenaline an active skill? I have no experience with modding and I would really like to see this tested.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 10 December 2020, 18:55:20
yeah, I noticed too that at the end of the video, the skill didn't activate immediately anymore. Very confusing. I tested it myself with Battle Rage and Adrenaline and it always activated again after the same amount of seconds which implied there is indeed a cooldown.

How do you make Adrenaline an active skill? I have no experience with modding and I would really like to see this tested.

NOTICE: If you want just play in game, then just play in it, and don't poison itself with modding. Otherwise you might end what you will be infected with modding, and you will no have time to do normal play anymore... you are warned.

1. You need at least read something about generic modding, about ArtManager... there is exist some tutorails on this forum and on web. Generally it is looks complex at start, but actually much easier than it is described anywhere.
2. You need create new mod with ArtManager
3. Import "records/skills/defensive/adrenaline.dbr" record.
4. Change Class field to "Skill_BuffSelfDuration" (also switch "templateName" to "database\Templates\Skill_BuffSelfDuration.tpl").
4.a. For easy testing there is have sense switch onHitActivationChance to 100.
5. Then build mod and start custom map.

In custom map mod (not bounce mod) new character can use developer console (use "~" (tilde) key) to open it. By command: "game.incrementLevel" you can increment level to get required skills, so you don't need fight with game about game saves.

PS: Also note, when skill activated, animation may appear with some delay... for me it is about for 1-2 seconds for first time, then usually faster, but it anyway depends to animation itself. So when you test - there is better to look on character's health regen and don't take on-screen FX into account at all.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 10 December 2020, 21:12:30
yeah, I noticed too that at the end of the video, the skill didn't activate immediately anymore. Very confusing. I tested it myself with Battle Rage and Adrenaline and it always activated again after the same amount of seconds which implied there is indeed a cooldown.

How do you make Adrenaline an active skill? I have no experience with modding and I would really like to see this tested.

NOTICE: If you want just play in game, then just play in it, and don't poison itself with modding. Otherwise you might end what you will be infected with modding, and you will no have time to do normal play anymore... you are warned.

1. You need at least read something about generic modding, about ArtManager... there is exist some tutorails on this forum and on web. Generally it is looks complex at start, but actually much easier than it is described anywhere.
2. You need create new mod with ArtManager
3. Import "records/skills/defensive/adrenaline.dbr" record.
4. Change Class field to "Skill_BuffSelfDuration" (also switch "templateName" to "database\Templates\Skill_BuffSelfDuration.tpl").
4.a. For easy testing there is have sense switch onHitActivationChance to 100.
5. Then build mod and start custom map.

In custom map mod (not bounce mod) new character can use developer console (use "~" (tilde) key) to open it. By command: "game.incrementLevel" you can increment level to get required skills, so you don't need fight with game about game saves.

PS: Also note, when skill activated, animation may appear with some delay... for me it is about for 1-2 seconds for first time, then usually faster, but it anyway depends to animation itself. So when you test - there is better to look on character's health regen and don't take on-screen FX into account at all.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I will just live with it for now though because this is not worth all the work. If you find out more about this some day please tell me though. For now, I will just try finishing legendary difficulty lol

Btw I just watched icefreezes video again and the fact that Adrenaline doesn't proc in the end until 6 seconds cooldown is over actually shows there must be something with his equipment that causes the quick procs at the beginning of the video (just like you said).
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: botebote77 on 11 December 2020, 00:19:16
Btw I just watched icefreezes video again and the fact that Adrenaline doesn't proc in the end until 6 seconds cooldown is over actually shows there must be something with his equipment...
actually, it doesn't.. it just meant it didn't proc that time.. adrenaline only has 5%chance to proc

btw I'm not siding with anyone because i myself don't know the answer to your question
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: botebote77 on 11 December 2020, 00:52:51
actually, spending more time thinking about it, about items being the culprit, it's veeeerrrryyy unlikely. here's the thing: the video shows adrenaline with 6secs recharge. that means the character have 80% recharge already. I'm not aware of any items that have %chance of flat recharge. I've seen items with %chance of %recharge but it would be useless here because
1) 80% CDR already
2) %CDR is capped at 80% so it can never be zero

so the only items i could think of capable of doing that would be items with chance to cast refresh. there's only 2 items i could think of capable of doing that:
1) falcon cape
2) ren leis pride

ren leis pride iirc is not chance to proc. iirc you cast it. but I'm not 100% sure anymore
falcon cape is chance to proc refresh but only at low health. watching the video, there's still over 50% health when adrenaline procced

the only other possibility would be if the character cast refresh but watching the video, refresh never showed any cooldown so refresh was never cast
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 11 December 2020, 03:10:21
Then there is kind of bug in engine and reduction cap under some conditions magically is not get applied, because in all other cases 6 seconds for adrenaline cooldown always applied. There is need save file, knowing game version to attempt even reproduce this. Otherwise this doesn't have sense: cooldown for this skill always start after active skill's phase get finished. Anyone can take few levels and check it with chronometer.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 07:52:35
Thank you botebote77 and lixiss. I think what lixiss said must be true. icefreeze explained in his video that he has indeed 80% CDR build. I also think it might be some bug because when you get attacked by like 25 enemies (like in the video), Adrenaline should proc constantly and the probability for no proc in 6 seconds is almost zero (if your standpoint is that CD starts right after proc). Not only did Adrenaline only proc once, but it also didn't proc for 6 seconds at the end (which happens to be the cooldown time) so I'm pretty sure the normal behavior for such skills is just like lixiss said (and it also worked exactly like that in my tests).
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: botebote77 on 11 December 2020, 08:27:08
having giving more thought about it, there's still one more possible way that might make the items the culprit: if the character is wearing items that have grant skill: adrenaline. the first adrenaline proc is due to skill, then immediately after that, the grant skill from item procced. but i don't know if that's how it works
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 10:15:44
having giving more thought about it, there's still one more possible way that might make the items the culprit: if the character is wearing items that have grant skill: adrenaline. the first adrenaline proc is due to skill, then immediately after that, the grant skill from item procced. but i don't know if that's how it works

Right, that could be the case as well. I definitely doubt the version of icefreeze because then, with 20-25 attacks per second like in the video, Adrenaline would proc constantly, not only 2 times in 35 seconds.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 10:53:32
Please have a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflDrAFeMVE

In the beginning at around 1:44, it takes several seconds to proc again, but at the end, it procs instantly like in the first video. With this new information and equipment etc., does someone have the answer now? Because I am REALLY confused now.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: botebote77 on 11 December 2020, 11:37:20
i hate acting like a judge here, and i won't.... but y'know.. if this is a court case, one side has shown evidence already, the other hasn't...
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 13:03:39
i hate acting like a judge here, and i won't.... but y'know.. if this is a court case, one side has shown evidence already, the other hasn't...

Wait, I don't understand. In the latest video, until 17:52, Adrenaline procs EXACTLY like in my tests. It always has a cooldown until it gets activated again. Only from 17:52 until 18:02 it does proc without a cooldown. Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 11 December 2020, 14:39:38
having giving more thought about it, there's still one more possible way that might make the items the culprit: if the character is wearing items that have grant skill: adrenaline. the first adrenaline proc is due to skill, then immediately after that, the grant skill from item procced. but i don't know if that's how it works
Good catch, but is not a case... There is good chance what multiple skill instances will activated and effects get overlapped: in this case multiple adrenaline skill icons will appear in effects bar.


Wait, I don't understand. In the latest video, until 17:52, Adrenaline procs EXACTLY like in my tests. It always has a cooldown until it gets activated again. Only from 17:52 until 18:02 it does proc without a cooldown. Am I missing something here?
So about 20 minutes skill cooldown works correctly, and only once it triggered without cooldown? lol. There is good evidence of how it work, and show's what there is some bug or unexplained thing.

I'm only have two theories why it might happens at all:

1. [unlikely] Some calculations eventually get poisoned with "NaN" value, which eventually might be treated as zero. Doesn't like this too much, because... this explain nothing and this can't be tested in sensible way.

2. So my best theory: Probably there is exist small time-frame (for example exactly 1 animation frame) between skill's active phase and skill's cooldown phase when skill might be triggered again without cooldown (e.g. skill already wear-off but still not start cooldown => so it eligible for triggering). In this case, chances to skip cooldown should grow-up with number of enemy hits you receive per second. Relative chances (e.g. "feel") will grow up even more with smaller active-phase and smaller cooldown-time. I probably will try reproduce this later.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 15:35:26
having giving more thought about it, there's still one more possible way that might make the items the culprit: if the character is wearing items that have grant skill: adrenaline. the first adrenaline proc is due to skill, then immediately after that, the grant skill from item procced. but i don't know if that's how it works
Good catch, but is not a case... There is good chance what multiple skill instances will activated and effects get overlapped: in this case multiple adrenaline skill icons will appear in effects bar.


Wait, I don't understand. In the latest video, until 17:52, Adrenaline procs EXACTLY like in my tests. It always has a cooldown until it gets activated again. Only from 17:52 until 18:02 it does proc without a cooldown. Am I missing something here?
So about 20 minutes skill cooldown works correctly, and only once it triggered without cooldown? lol. There is good evidence of how it work, and show's what there is some bug or unexplained thing.

I'm only have two theories why it might happens at all:

1. [unlikely] Some calculations eventually get poisoned with "NaN" value, which eventually might be treated as zero. Doesn't like this too much, because... this explain nothing and this can't be tested in sensible way.

2. So my best theory: Probably there is exist small time-frame (for example exactly 1 animation frame) between skill's active phase and skill's cooldown phase when skill might be triggered again without cooldown (e.g. skill already wear-off but still not start cooldown => so it eligible for triggering). In this case, chances to skip cooldown should grow-up with number of enemy hits you receive per second. Relative chances (e.g. "feel") will grow up even more with smaller active-phase and smaller cooldown-time. I probably will try reproduce this later.

Thank you for the clear explanation, that makes very much sense and also explains the strange behavior in the video! Let me know in case you tested this some time!
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 11 December 2020, 17:53:53
Quote
2. So my best theory: Probably there is exist small time-frame (for example exactly 1 animation frame) between skill's active phase and skill's cooldown phase when skill might be triggered again without cooldown (e.g. skill already wear-off but still not start cooldown => so it eligible for triggering). In this case, chances to skip cooldown should grow-up with number of enemy hits you receive per second. Relative chances (e.g. "feel") will grow up even more with smaller active-phase and smaller cooldown-time. I probably will try reproduce this later.

Thank you for the clear explanation, that makes very much sense and also explains the strange behavior in the video! Let me know in case you tested this some time!

I'm quick test this theory, and generally this looks like this works similarly how i'm describe it, but with small additions:

1. Skill triggered -> Active Phase
2. Active Phase Ends
3. Small window to get skill re-activated from hit. If it re-activated, then new sequence starts from step 1, but current sequence continued (simulatenously).
4. E.g. regardless to outcome of (3) cooldown start anyway. (So in normal case skill is not active and CD started, in other case skill just activated and CD also started).

So, from (3) means what to have "infinite" proc, you need cooldown smaller than skill duration (i'm doesn't test case when CD > skill duration, but i guess, everyone agreed what skills never trigger while on CD - now quickly tested, see note below).

From (4) we have what skill can be chained second time (but not third time) with CD greater than skill duration.

Code: [Select]
--> time axis
-----------[    Active Phase    ]-[*]-[     Cooldown Phase|     ] ------------------------------
----------------------------------[    Active Phase    ]-[|]-[     Cooldown Phase      ] -------
                                                          |
                                                          \-- at this moment skill would not more get triggered (looks like)
                                                              existing cooldown overriden by new cooldown


Chance (3) in my tests definitely better scaled with number of attacks you receive.

I'm spawned about 50 or 60 satyr archers to get feel about 70-90% chance, and skill get starts to chained 2-3-4 times (for test skill with 100% proc, but there is no big matter because you need only 5% chance and 20 attacks in round to get about to 100% proc). However when it was just 10 less monsters - feel was not so good. Probably there is because their attacks more synchronized and naturally spawned mosters may spread hit timing better. Number of archers are very rough... you can count it for self. :)

(https://i.imgur.com/egpkUm2.jpg)

Anyway, normally this doesn't happens every time, so there is no big sense to account what skill will up permanently.
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 11 December 2020, 22:16:47
@lixiss Thank you so much for spending the time to test this, I really appreciate it! So this means, that when you play normally, you will probably never get more than 2 consecutive Adrenaline procs, right? And we can assume that this theory also works for all other skills that trigger on hit (or being hit) like Battle Rage, right?
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: lixiss on 11 December 2020, 23:07:16
@lixiss Thank you so much for spending the time to test this, I really appreciate it! So this means, that when you play normally, you will probably never get more than 2 consecutive Adrenaline procs, right? And we can assume that this theory also works for all other skills that trigger on hit (or being hit) like Battle Rage, right?

Yes, it works for other skills too in same way.

Even passive player's special attack skills with hit chance and cooldown (i'm doesn't remember just now good sample in standard game... but in some mods they present) - may proc twice in a row, but not more than twice, by using same mechanics. [at least this looks like, and i'm already seen this behavior]

Quote
So this means, that when you play normally, you will probably never get more than 2 consecutive Adrenaline procs, right?
Right, but when CD < Skill Duration there is technically possible to get it chained, especially if you got blessing from god of RNG (random number generator). :)

PS: In my taste, the fact what skill get triggered again without CD - is just engine bug. Or nice addition? :)
Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: hansuswurstus on 12 December 2020, 07:21:49
Ok great, now I can finally die in peace with this knowledge, haha thanks again  :D

Title: Re: Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)
Post by: Ninakoru on 18 January 2021, 19:51:12
My two cents:

My wild guess is there's some damage type is able to bypass the 80% cap and trigger the skill immediately. AFAIK the correct behavior is that the cooldown starts when the skill duration ends.
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