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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: mammoth_hunter on 10 May 2019, 21:19:34

Title: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 10 May 2019, 21:19:34
So I loaded some of my old characters in new expac and tried most of level 40 skills at legendary act 4, in Rhodes or Hades palace.

Rune - tested with rune weapon dragon hunter.

Rune storm - haven't seen it trigger any effects, feels useless.
Rune field - creates full screen of rune mines. For some reason skill didn't level past rank 15. The idea is decent but runic mines damage in endgame is too low, it takes 5-6 runes to kill most basic trash mobs with flush out debuff running.

Rogue - tested with poison trickster and phys/pierce corsair.

Blade barrier - creates 3 spheres around you that do flat pierce and bleed damage and convey weapon effects. Not very useful for a poison build as there are better ways to convey poison. For a pierce build the damage seems low to bother. Maybe on pierce brigand with study prey it would be ok as a fancy AOE.

Poison mayhem - throws 5 poison bombs, one where you click and the others at random. The idea is good but I wish it was more predictable.

Dream - tested with vitality diviner and ritualist summoner.

Psionic beam - makes psionic touch pierce when used with a staff. I wish it just did more damage instead or had AOE on every hit, piercing isn't that good to waste points there.

Dream image - summons a doppelganger that attacks with your weapon. Damage is apparently physical as stated in tooltip, and low. Doesn't convey pet damage from gear. Bad for damage, but can hold aggro. But doesn't last long. I wish it dropped one of your items like the original.

Spirit - tested with vitality diviner.

Soul drain - an extension of life drain line that does vitality damage in a nova around first target it hits. Damage is good with deathchill up close but less good at range. But it stuns target. Overall useful as half damage half crowd control skill akin to volcanic orb.

Soul vortex - steals life and mana in a radius around you (lifeleech damage). Can heal very quick and with deathchill can kill mobs. Skill is good and does what is supposed to do.

Nature - tested with ritualist summoner

Earthbind - screen wide immobilization. Overall useful for a character that needs crowd control. 300 something flat poison damage suggests it may be useful for a poison caster.

Sylvan protection - castable ability for nymph that looks like short range wave and does like earthbind. Thats very narrow in utility for those who want nymph to do more things. Can only be unlocked after putting one point in nature wrath which is a major downside for me as I don't want nature wrath.

Storm - tested with a bow/spear lightning sage.

Lightning dash - movement ability like take down. No idea what is it doing in storm mastery, I'd rather asked for more reliable crowd control there.

Arc discharge - does not make wisp do any notable damage on a non-summoner when maxed. No idea how it would fare on a dedicated summoner.

Earth - tested with a physical battlemage.

Meteor rain - rocks fall in a large radius around you in random locations, physical and burn damage. Damage is poor on a physical caster for an ability with such cooldown. Inability to target makes it even worse, if it misses, you'll be waiting some 40 sec to try again.

Fire nova - don't have an appropriate fire caster in legendary to test this.

Hunting - tested on a slayer.

Spear dance - 360o arc attack with low damage, chance of fear and slower attack. I don't think this is useful, spear builds can often kill foes faster than they would scare them, and if they can't kill them, chance of fear won't help.

Finesse - extensio of the call of the hunt skill. Adds 10% and 600 flat offensive ability. This is madness, hunting does not really need more OA with flush out to crit so its a group buff mostly. Some other masteries may need OA more, say rogue.

Defense - tested with melee corsair.

Perfect block - 100% damage absorption for 1.1 sec duration. Mirror of ereoctes like skill, but isn't it too short?

Unyielding phalanx - summons a line of elysium ghosts that attack all mobs that come in melee range with them. Deal decent damage on non-summoner and I don't know if they convey pet damage from gear. Overall fun and efficient but weird for defense mastery.

Warfare - tested with physical battlemage.

Slam - flat physical damage wave-like spell that does damage in a straight line and stuns. Damage isn't good on a physical caster and there is also warhorn for stun so dubious overall.

Lasting legacy - Increased duration for ancestral horn summons. Haven't tested it as I don't have appropriate character for it but should be useful for a dedicated summoner.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 11 May 2019, 08:03:05
not about the skills but i think this falls under this topic
(i don't have the DLC yet, just to clarify)

with the mastery bar now up to 40, more stats should be available to characters.. why am i not reading that anywhere? (steam, reddit, gog, this forum)

what that means:

1) more health and mana
2) hybrids should be easier to build now

not that hybrids would be more popular now.. it's just how things are.. (but i wonder if the devs had any hybrid beta testers)

can anyone post how many stats are added in each mastery? and are monsters stronger now? because if not, they might've just made the game easier.. giving us free stats while monsters stay the same
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 11 May 2019, 11:34:23
The patch notes are vague and do not detail all changes but after playing like two hours I did meet a few dangerous mobs in the expansion. I have a character with 6500 hp and 60% pierce resistance, but no physical resistance, caster armor, no projectile evasion or block, and no blocker CC and just not very good ranged CC. There are giant squid mobs with bows in one the first locations that feel very much like Machae, you survive by chugging potions, and running straight into a pack of more than three is dangerous. Then they are "giants" and have huge hp pool on top.

Regarding stats, each mastery gives its own hp, mana, and stat points per point invested. Numbers for each of them might be available somewhere, or you may go to titan calc and get them there, then multiply by 8.

Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 11 May 2019, 17:25:26
Actually, all archers are nuts in the new area, you absolutely need either passive defense or reliable strategy against them.

Environment and story are good until the last two out-of-place bosses. Devs still recycle mobs on industrial scale though like someone needs to tell them this is actually not okay, and base game never did that.

And the skills... most of them are terrible with few exceptions. This comes from poor utility, or damage, or both. Some are rendered useless by inability to control them, then there are temporary expensive summons with no damage potential. For people to use the skill it has to do something in their build, its not just one more button to press for extra oumph once in awhile. Base game wasn't exactly famous for good skill design, but it is usually better to stay with the old ones and ignore the new ones.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: legowarrior on 13 May 2019, 17:03:16
Sadly, I haven't had a chance to try out the new skills, but the ones for Nature and Rogue look like an excellent fit for my Illusionist.  Extra Poison skills are always welcome. 
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 13 May 2019, 21:56:27
Let's start by saying that having extra skills doesn't hurt but a total overhaul like the one in  the Underlord Mod would have been better. Some ideas are good, but they have been done in a crap way.
Rune

Rune storm - (bugged? it seam a good skill for C C and nothing more.
Rune field - creates full screen of rune mines (too much imho)

Rogue

Blade barrier - The visul is orrible, it seeam a cheap copy of "ring of steel" from grim dawn.

Poison mayhem - too much radius and unpredictable trajectories make it not very useful. it seams whit many of this new skill they think more about the radius than the damege itself

Dream

Psionic beam - useless without a staff. An AOE on every hit will have fit it perfectly.

Dream image - Maybe the damge is low but at last the aggro is useful. Not perfect but good.

Spirit

Soul drain -it will be perfect if it was swapped place with vision of deat or generally put in a lower level. It havent the feel of the ultimate skill, not like soul vortex or meteor rain.

Soul vortex - Nothing to say here.

Nature

Earthbind - too wide screen wide immobilization. Useful for c c.
Sylvan protection - A smaller version of erthbind it will be better it they will have made a skill like volley from hunt.

Storm

Lightning dash - Totaly out of place, no idea way they make something so out of place here. Maybe a skill with ice like a blizzard that do frostburn damage and prevent movement (ike freazing blast but in a radius or in a wave will have fit better).
Arc discharge - For wat i have see it is like "chain lightning" only for the wisp.

Earth.

Meteor rain - A natural choice for a pyrommancer, fit well but the random radius and the long cooldown it make it not so much good. A radius of about 9 meter whit more fragments and it will have be perfect.

Fire nova - Good for deal damage in a similr way like storm surge but when you choose it and whit fire instead of lightening damage.

Hunting

Spear dance - ?.

Finesse - Lower defens or chance to avoid attack will have make a better skill. The extra OA is pointless.

Defense

Perfect block - Duration too short and with -100% attac speed it make it a good skill on paper but bad in game. If you make that you cant attack no one at last make it the duration long enough for run away or give it for a shorter duration (4-5 sec) a 100% damge reflectd.

Unyielding phalanx - If instead of a line they will have been made into a circle like "300" it will have been a perfect emergency skill equal good for attach and defense. Similar to briar wood or something like that.

Warfare

Slam - A skill like this can be very good in narrow passage like cave or tomb when the enemey run at you in a straight line.

Lasting legacy - Increased duration for ancestral horn is good expecially with so many player alway traing to find items with - recharge time for have it always turn on. This in some measure will solve the problem.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: legowarrior on 13 May 2019, 22:19:16
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 

I will definitely grab it for my Paladin later on just to try it out.  At the very least, it will give me some more mobility.   And that's something to keep in mind, it does increase your speed.  So, it's a defensive and offensive skill. 

Poison Mayhem is something I'm looking forward to myself.  It should be great for taking on huge swarms of monsters.  Just something extra for my illusionist to do, besides of just summoning wolves and setting up traps. 

Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 14 May 2019, 01:11:13
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 
One problem with lightning dash is that most melee masteries have their own movement skill and do not need another one urgently. I wouldn't be building rogue + storm as melee, so the only exception would be rune + storm. This lightning dash would better fit rune then.

Slam in warfare is a single hit for 500 base damage with long cooldown, which translates into something like 3,5K on my battlemage. Thats around 1/3 of engame common mob's hp. Its one of the problems of some others new skills too - a single hit with long cooldown, in endgame its not enough unless the skill is really strong like seal of fate. So far that battlemage learned to use it on archer packs, followed by eruption, but stun is also too short. If it can't have better damage, it could have longer stun duration.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 14 May 2019, 04:22:40
Lightning Dash don't have recharge time, so no cool down, and can cast continuity:
https://youtu.be/9BxI55rk5aQ?t=1774
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 14 May 2019, 07:38:52
Lightning Dash Is a LMB Skill. Like onslaugt, rune weapons ecc. But its too up in the tree. In a lover level It Will have make more sense.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Mammothmkii on 14 May 2019, 11:05:29
Lightning Dash seems pretty excellent for Paladins, Thanes, Sorcerers, and Thunderers.  At least with Melee Builds. 

I will definitely grab it for my Paladin later on just to try it out.  At the very least, it will give me some more mobility.   And that's something to keep in mind, it does increase your speed.  So, it's a defensive and offensive skill. 
 

Yeah lightning dash is one of my favorite additions!! My Prophet is now using it to jump between enemies as LMB instead of psionic touch.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 14 May 2019, 17:47:29
Lightning Dash Is a LMB Skill. Like onslaugt, rune weapons ecc. But its too up in the tree. In a lover level It Will have make more sense.
I fear it lacks much more as an lmb skill, than as movement skill. It is supposed to be a skill for hybrids which had always been sort of problematic in TQ. In rune mastery autoattack skill, rune weapon, this is addressed by stacking crazy intelligence buff (up to 140%), flat elemental damage (50 I think) and full physical to elemental conversion. And still, rune weapon does not always get to satisfactory performance as a melee autoattack skill.

Now compare it to lightning dash, it has what, 10 flat lighning damage on it, and some character evasion buff.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 14 May 2019, 19:20:42
the main problem is that they dont change the skill tree but simply add some new one. Some skill are good, but not that good. Other (the new one i meen) seem put in the wrong place. Cam on, how many of you will reach the max level (aside for stat point) just for pick a skill like lighting dash or the wisp power up or erthbind? When i play i usually choose a tier and a relative skill that i want absolutley. (defense = colossus form, Earth = volcanic orb and so on and usually the skill in the ultimate tier is a must have but the new one in most case they seem just there for justifay the new tier leve itselfl. In my hopinion it was way better if the will have made a complete rework like the one in underlord. Same maestries but with new\improved skill. Right now it seams thet the dev simply add a new tier for justifay the upper level limit.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: 1cec0ld on 14 May 2019, 23:07:51
Some thoughts from a high ranking source:

Quote
Arc Discharge - more damage for Storm Petmasters
Dash - make Storm cool for melee

Meteors - Large AoE for Str builds
Fire Nova - Large AoE for Int builds

Dream Image - Fan favorite skill (Doppelganger), usable by all builds
Psionic Beam - Enable staff attack builds without Spirit

Soul Drain - enable Vitality Damage focused mages
Soul Vortex - life draining for non-int characters, esp. melee (bomb when surrounded)

Phalanx - add pets to Defense
Active Block - reward twitch skills in otherwise passive mastery

Earthbind - mass one-click crowd control
Sylvan Protection - Pet-based crowd control

CotH - Finesse - support melee hunters with thematic buff
Spear Dance - multihit & fear, compensate for shortcomings of spear builds

Poision Mayhem - keep PGB interesting in late game
Blade Barrier - weapon-effect based area traps, synergy with poisons

Lasting Legacy - enable Warfare petmasters
Line Slam - some ranged CC capability for Str warrior

Runestorm - crowd fight skill for everyone, esp. str melee
Runic Minefield - keep Mines interesting late game, for int chars

If some skills feel uninteresting to some builds that is ok. While on one hand they should be widely useful, the intention with others was to create new ways of plaing a class that the usual builds don't usually follow.

As such the lightning damage on Dash, for example, is mostly for effect.

About earth, those skills really are the "fight large crowds" skills the Mastery promises, with both being similar because of Earth's Int/str duality. But that is why the fire one is a more common, lower damage "slow burn" and the meteors the effect-laden nuke.

The idea behind Psi Beam specifically was to compete against Ternion Attack, while having a different feel to it. And generally supporting Staves in Dream.

Soul Vortex is designed to turn around a bad situation in melee. Numbers scale with your level.

Perfect Block is a trade between a short duration and a long cooldown to RMB away any dangerous boss attacks more often. This isn't meant to be used every other fight.

Blade Barrier - The main feature here is that you put your weapon enhancements, including bleed procs and Mandrake, on an AoE spell. PBAoE buffs like Soul or Rune vortex currently can't do that, and we already have those.
Closest alternative here would be to also make it a targeted line much like the Phalanx. Or perpendicular.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 15 May 2019, 20:43:10
Some thoughts from a high ranking source
Nope, its not a good way to reference, please provide a source so I know whom I'm talking with.




Quote
Dash - make Storm cool for melee
Like I tried to explain above, making storm cool for melee requires considerable effort in general, and a single not overpowered skill won't cut it.

Quote
Meteors - Large AoE for Str builds
Tried them again, 10 attempts, 7 misses, 3 hits. Can't kill yotuns though can kill melinoe. Thats how a single hit skill you can't aim would always perform. 40 seconds to wait after missing and I can't do anything to aim better. Can't find a use for it in a build. If its for damage, such cooldown and random target location makes it so I can't rely on it in anything.

Quote
Psionic Beam - Enable staff attack builds without Spirit
It is going to take more than piercing to compete with ternion. Crate tried that wit ranged cadence and it is still not quite there. Usable with pistols and rapid attacks, not going to do much with slow rifles without a legendary set.

Quote
CotH - Finesse - support melee hunters with thematic buff
A standard dexterity based piercing build that uses CotH for pierce buff can easily have ~600 OA from dexterity alone by late game (or 1000 with some effort). 700-800 with a single veteran's weapon. With a debuff that removes half of mobs DA its the same as having 1400-1600 OA. Easily enough to consistently crit anything in the game.

Now, 700 OA buff is crazy overpowered on its own. But considering how hunting does not need it to crit consistently, its rather pointless in this mastery.

Quote
Spear Dance - multihit & fear, compensate for shortcomings of spear builds
There are no shortcomings that spear builds have, inability to multitarget can be compensated with a second mastery skills and aren't even that much needed: spears are one of the simplest ways to play because of how strong they are, you generally just one-hit-kill everything. I wouldn't put fear on it if its supposed to be AOE - you would want mobs to run at you, not away.

Quote
Poision Mayhem - keep PGB interesting in late game
PGB is already very viable in late game if built around. Adding more projectiles isn't bad, but without ability to target them even roughly they are good for nothing.

Quote
Blade Barrier - weapon-effect based area traps, synergy with poisons
This is too slow for when mobs are already in melee range.

Quote
Line Slam - some ranged CC capability for Str warrior
If it is crowd control its duration is too short, with mobs getting stun resistance on higher difficulties its hard to keep them within other spells range.

Quote
Runestorm - crowd fight skill for everyone, esp. str melee
Hitting this button doesn't visually do anything. For people to use a skill in a build it should have some guaranteed effect they can rely on. See flash powder - if it does not confuse, it still always slows and fumbles drastically.

Quote
Runic Minefield - keep Mines interesting late game, for int chars
Rune mines damage in late game is pathetic.

Quote
Blade Barrier - The main feature here is that you put your weapon enhancements, including bleed procs and Mandrake, on an AoE spell.
Throwing knives can do that at a screen range and that is a huge advantage over blade barrier.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: 1cec0ld on 15 May 2019, 23:58:03
I can't provide a source because he didn't authorize me to quote him. You're speaking with me  ;D

The following is all my opinion, not his:

Personally, I like the feel of Psionic Beam. Ternion always felt clunky and weak, particularly while investing points so that it can finally become a positive damage source. If I want to attack one enemy, I don't want to aggro the enemies at a 20 degree angle off of it at the same time.
That, plus the ability to more quickly re-apply Psionic Touch and Psionic Burn, as well as the smooth animation made it one of my favorite skills to Beta Test.

Throwing knives are a longer range way to apply weapon effects, yes. And a completely different playstyle. If you want to turn your melee assassin into a knife thrower, you are free to do so. That doesn't justify removing or changing Blade Barrier.

People already play Storm with melee characters. Giving those players another option to use a skill is already a cool thing to do. Your personal standards on what effort is required to make something "cool" might need reevaluating.

I do agree on Meteor. Consistency makes a skill more attractive than sheer dumb luck. I hope this does change eventually.

"Considering how Hunting does not need to crit consistently"
Why not? If a Hunting player picks a second mastery that wants to crit, why stop them? Also, who said only Hunters benefit from Call of the Hunt? Again, look at other playstyles, not just the metagame, best DPS builds. They want to encourage diversification, not making OP things more OP.

Shortcomings of spear builds, off the top of my head:
Single target unless a second mastery is forced.
Two passive buffs, Wood Lore and Volley, neither affect multiple targets.
One spear specific skill, Take Down (with a crappy augment), unless a second mastery is forced.
Allowing a Pure Hunter to hit more enemies with a spear sounds like a great way to encourage that new playstyle.

Poison Mayhem, again, I agree that consistency would be helpful, and I hope it changes.

Slam, I didn't try it, I'm not a Warfare player normally, I'm going to stay out of this one.
Same with Rune class. I don't like the Mastery, I'm not a good judge of how to improve it.

Everything you didn't respond to: I take it that you're ok with those skills then? You like that Earthbind is basically a copy of Sylvan Protection? Phalanx and Perfect Block make sense now? Your negatives are nice to hear, but at least give the developers credit when your mind is changed, rather than a wall of "this is why you're wrong on these specific points"
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 16 May 2019, 01:05:24
Throwing knives are a longer range way to apply weapon effects, yes. And a completely different playstyle. If you want to turn your melee assassin into a knife thrower, you are free to do so. That doesn't justify removing or changing Blade Barrier.
Giving throwing knives to a melee build for damage works fine. You get a ranged spell, and mandrake at range. Blade barrier works at the same range as your melee weapon, so its weird and redundant when you swing your weapon at the same mobs. Weapons tend to be stronger than spells too. So it goes like that: you turn on blade barrier, see mobs starting to take damage while you kill them immediately with attacks.

Quote
People already play Storm with melee characters. Giving those players another option to use a skill is already a cool thing to do. Your personal standards on what effort is required to make something "cool" might need reevaluating.
Uh, lol, what.

Quote
I do agree on Meteor. Consistency makes a skill more attractive than sheer dumb luck. I hope this does change eventually.
If meteor has some consistency in where it falls, it could be built as a physical caster with reduced recharge gear. A different playstyle than physical melee. It would have to sacrifice some defense and probably also attack speed for recharge, which sounds like a thoughtful decision not without drawbacks.

Quote
"Considering how Hunting does not need to crit consistently"
Why not? If a Hunting player picks a second mastery that wants to crit, why stop them? Also, who said only Hunters benefit from Call of the Hunt?
Hunting can already crit consistently, its common way to build a character which would normally utilize CotH, and another skill that was already there, is enough.

Quote
Again, look at other playstyles, not just the metagame, best DPS builds. They want to encourage diversification, not making OP things more OP.
Yes, sure, thats exactly what I'm doing.

Quote
Allowing a Pure Hunter to hit more enemies with a spear sounds like a great way to encourage that new playstyle.
New skill does not have much damage to be anything attractive and chance of fear is counterproductive for melee.

Quote
Everything you didn't respond to: I take it that you're ok with those skills then?
I commented on them in the first post of this thread and later, that should be enough. But if it isn't I may try to elaborate.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 16 May 2019, 06:34:41
- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet. Its attack delay the same like you using Ring of Flame skill, about 2 tick/s. It can be trigger some skill on items like TK. Using Blade Barrier with some items like Mjolnir throw hammer can be a very good CC skill ( and dealing more dmg) => its good at some point.
- Spear Dance: dmg of this skill its quite good at high lvl, it like Warwind of Hunting. I tested its dmg compare to normal hit, so don't talk i just "feeling".
- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
- Poison Mayhem: its should be change to get all PGB attack the same target than like present( each PGB go ech place, only one go to the place that you want, sometime 2).

Any skill who can attack multiple enemies can be using to trigger any grant skill activated on attack, so its has their something good about them.
More skill, more builds. Its good, but need improve.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 16 May 2019, 07:02:32
can i bitch a little? one more mini rant?  ;D

I'm also interested in that higher source.. was it a dev? a beta tester?

i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution.. the solution: it's already done before by hybrid players.. pair it with a melee mastery.. experienced hybrid players already know that.. they don't need something like this.. it's an insult

ok.. diversity.. well yeah why don't you add a caster spell on warfare and defense then? yeah you won't because melee players know it's not the solution.. it's a spit on the face of caster players.. and for this reason, the other wisp buff skill is also out of place.. everything in storm screams casters.. then you add a melee skill and a petmaster skill.. it's not the solution

edit: i am a caster player who loves storm.. and the ultimate skill i get is.. dot dot dot.. a melee skill and a petmaster skill
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 16 May 2019, 09:24:30
Some change in patch v2.4:
- Meteor Rain deal less Burn DMG, more Physical DMG, and have radius as skill infor (it doesn't deal DMG in range like skill infor before) => easier to hit target, more focus for Str build.
- Fire Nova get boost both Fire and Burn DMG ( about 1.5x).

* And about Psionic Beam: with high lvl, every staves attack with Psionic Touch can can pass through target, so it some how make the Staves attack get more power on it own way.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Prosoro on 16 May 2019, 10:37:13
Imo some of the new skills are appropriately placed at the top tier; such as Meteor (albeit they do need further tweaking/balance of damage to reflect this top tier status)

As for the others, I think that yes they would benefit from being placed among the lower tiers and a system similar to Grim Dawns 'Transmuter' skills would be much more effective - taking existing skills and changing up their flavour/playstyle.

@1cec0ld Pretty much agree with your thoughts  ;D
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 16 May 2019, 11:00:21
i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution..
Thanks for formulating this, its about what I was trying to tell. Hybrids go against the normal TQ character building schemes and need a lot to compensate for that. For damage, rune weapon stacks an absurd intelligence on player while converting all physical damage to elemental and adding more flat elemental. If its defense, the problem is in the storm mastery tooltip. Its good for attack, bad for defense. It only has damage reduction in squall and some unreliable crowd control. If you want to help strom in melee with defense, it would again require stacking multiple layers of defense to get anywhere near actual melee masteries.

Can a single skill like lightning dash do all of that? Hardly, unless its some completely overpowered skill, which it isn't.

- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet.
I'd argue its not for melee at all. Throwing weapons perhaps, though why wouldn't you use throwing knives on them too?

Quote
- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
Flush out can also do that by debuffing mobs your pets attack.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 16 May 2019, 11:48:00
i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution..
Thanks for formulating this, its about what I was trying to tell. Hybrids go against the normal TQ character building schemes and need a lot to compensate for that. For damage, rune weapon stacks an absurd intelligence on player while converting all physical damage to elemental and adding more flat elemental. If its defense, the problem is in the storm mastery tooltip. Its good for attack, bad for defense. It only has damage reduction in squall and some unreliable crowd control. If you want to help strom in melee with defense, it would again require stacking multiple layers of defense to get anywhere near actual melee masteries.

Can a single skill like lightning dash do all of that? Hardly, unless its some completely overpowered skill, which it isn't.

- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet.
I'd argue its not for melee at all. Throwing weapons perhaps, though why wouldn't you use throwing knives on them too?

Quote
- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
Flush out can also do that by debuffing mobs your pets attack.
- Just cast Blade Barrier and you can attack by yourselves, so you and BB attack together, it surely better than you just attack alone.
- More OA always good, especially when facing enemies that have high DA or dmg absorption, more critical hit, more good.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 16 May 2019, 12:30:56
- Just cast Blade Barrier and you can attack by yourselves, so you and BB attack together, it surely better than you just attack alone.
For me it results in BB doing approx 1/10 of what hero does with weapon in the same time. Redundancy.

Quote
More OA always good, especially when facing enemies that have high DA or dmg absorption, more critical hit, more good.
Not in this game and not even in GD. Crit multiplier gains from OA have ceiling. I think Anniversary edition meddled with OA/DA formula, but for max crit multiplier (x1.5) attackers OA should exceed defenders DA by 500 https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=43.0

I think Hydra and some other mobs had 900 DA, but new acts added mobs with slightly higher. Modders can figure how much is that exactly, my guess is its around 1000 DA. So you need 1500 OA to get max multiplier, anything above that is wasted. Unless you reduce mobs DA by half with flush out. That would be 500 DA, and require just 1000 OA to get max multiplier.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 16 May 2019, 13:46:09
- Formula for piercing dmg are 2 formula. For piercing dmg on weapon
= (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)
You should update.
- If 1000OA is must to get maximum effect, so Pet don't have that OA, and with Finese buff, it can reach to maximum effect to hit and crit.

You can test the effect of Finese on Wolf. You will be surely surprise.
Just be sure that you test on monster, don't test on dummies.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 16 May 2019, 19:07:51
- Formula for piercing dmg are 2 formula. For piercing dmg on weapon
= (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)
You should update.
Um, we were talking about OA/DA in relation to crit.


Quote
You can test the effect of Finese on Wolf. You will be surely surprise.
Just be sure that you test on monster, don't test on dummies.
Its hard to surprise me but I don't have any rangers or brigands and cannot test it, so I guess I can trust you on your word? That would make the skill summoner related. I mean summoner skill in hunting. After melee storm and summoner defense I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 16 May 2019, 21:41:40
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 17 May 2019, 00:51:45
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them

Storm already has a lot of caster skills, what do you think is lacking ?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 17 May 2019, 01:19:57
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them

Storm already has a lot of caster skills, what do you think is lacking ?
do you really think lightning dash is a good top tier skill for storm?

the suggested CC by mammoth would've been better

would you like a top tier caster spell for warfare or defense?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 17 May 2019, 01:45:10
a more serious answer, @soa

a frost nova that slows enemies for a few seconds and has a small chance to freeze would be really nice.. i wouldn't even care if the damage is weak or even zero

edit: or a passive flat energy regen or reduced energy cost.. even something as simple as this would make a big difference
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 17 May 2019, 07:49:15
I have to completly agree. Storm lack a big CC skill. Something like a blizzard skill that freeze enemeis in an area. The damage Is not important, the freeze part are. You Will get a new ice skill that now lack (Aside freezing blast there isen't any other ice skill). And you Will have a cc skill that for a glasses cannone Is really a must have .
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 17 May 2019, 11:16:45
Huh?  Squall is great for CC and Lightning Bolt isn't bad.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 17 May 2019, 11:57:43
Huh?  Squall is great for CC and Lightning Bolt isn't bad.
squall has debuff, not CC.. those 2 are different
lightning bolt has 1 sec stun which on legendary does not mean much
lightning bolt is more focused on damage rather than CC.. we are asking for CC, not damage
same for ice shard, if anyone brings that up

edit: and if anyone brings up thunderball, that is really hard to hit except when mobs are already hitting you.. and again, thunderball is stun which is easier to resist than freeze

i play caster storm and when i get to tier 40, my thoughts are "i have no use for this skill".. but if it's CC or the passives i suggested, every build has a use for it
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 17 May 2019, 15:52:17
Like betobote77 say squall and lighting bolt is more damage oriented or debuff (squall). Storm will need something like fire nova from earth but whit freeze  and slow in a range of 9 metres. Something useful if you are sorraunded and you can't escape quickly enough.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 21 May 2019, 01:01:52
anyone noticed the absurd energy costs of these new skills? meteor rain has what 400 energy cost? lol.. fire nova has 300+?

like making them seem ultimate very good skills which they are not

by comparison, eruption only has 133 energy cost, lightning bolt has 200 (both at ultimate max +4).. both long range and sure to hit, with way less cooldowns and way less energy costs

things like these come when devs don't play their games.. on paper, it's not much but when you actually play it, you see the problems
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 21 May 2019, 08:36:24
Its strange that something likes this happen when the community was involve in the first place. When they start recruit some long time player i was thinking that this Will have solve the most problem before It present itself  at the release. But It seams this isent the case. Maybe they Will need to open some poll for let the player choose what skill has to be modified and in what way.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: sauruz on 21 May 2019, 10:15:51
i dont like how fire nova skill effect covers all screnn, i would prefer having it as small radius tho
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 21 May 2019, 10:36:36
Its strange that something likes this happen when the community was involve in the first place. When they start recruit some long time player i was thinking that this Will have solve the most problem before It present itself  at the release. But It seams this isent the case. Maybe they Will need to open some poll for let the player choose what skill has to be modified and in what way.
maybe the beta testers were more focused on finding bugs? i agree with the open poll.. 100%
edit: actually, i really really hope we can make this happen

i dont like how fire nova skill effect covers all screnn, i would prefer having it as small radius tho
good point.. but if they made the radius small, they would have to add a different debuff/CC.. impaired aim would be near useless with small radius.. for me, fire nova should be a skill you can cast often.. so smaller radius but not with that high energy cost.. and different debuff/CC
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Il_Dottore on 21 May 2019, 12:39:24
We can make a poll on the forum but se Will need 1 topic for maestry so we can avoid confusion. In every topic we can make 2 different poll. One for skill and ask if the skill Is ok and if not if you want to change (stat, power, damage ecc) or if you want the skill ti be completly remade. If It Is ok, good if not and you want some adgiustment you can write something about the stat you dont like and way you think they dont are good enough. If you chose the third option you can describe the new skill and what or how It has to work. Evry One can post their prefetencies. The most wantend change can be submited ti the devolopers and request that change.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 21 May 2019, 15:08:34
in my case though, all my characters are unplayable until they fix quick cast when holding shift.. i already submitted a bug report
until they fix that, only then can i play and only then can i participate
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Torstein159 on 21 May 2019, 18:03:56
in my case though, all my characters are unplayable until they fix quick cast when holding shift.. i already submitted a bug report
until they fix that, only then can i play and only then can i participate
Umm cant you just play without quick cast then? Just toggle it off in the settings. I'm not liking it either, so only for specific characters Ill be turning it on, if at all.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 21 May 2019, 18:51:51
I just using Blade Barrier on my Illusionist now.
Not max lvl, just lvl6, 7 but it pretty good, i don't think it should be imrpove much more.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 21 May 2019, 19:42:24
There was plenty of feedback given about all sorts of things to do with Atlantis.  However, it's up to THQNordic how and when they do anything regarding said feedback.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 21 May 2019, 23:14:09
in my case though, all my characters are unplayable until they fix quick cast when holding shift.. i already submitted a bug report
until they fix that, only then can i play and only then can i participate
Umm cant you just play without quick cast then? Just toggle it off in the settings. I'm not liking it either, so only for specific characters Ill be turning it on, if at all.
if i turn it off, i feel silly not putting points on the new skills.. why do you have to click again when casting fire nova and meteor rain when the landing spot don't change anyway? but notice that skills like blade barrier and perfect block are fixed even if quick cast is disabled.. did the devs have any caster beta testers?

I'm still envious of the other masteries.. dream gets to have a Doppelganger that can be permanent with +4 all skills and 80% CDR.. warfare can get ancestral warriors permanent now also with +4 and 80% CDR.. defense has summons now that can also be permanent with +4 and 80% CDR.. but these skills, they are all useful for all builds with or without 80% CDR

but caster masteries, well.... they got skills that may or may not be of use depending on the build.. all in the name of diversity which in the first place shouldn't be forced on the player.. diversity had always been possible because of dual-classing, choice of items, and choice of stat distribution.. they should've added skills that are useful to all builds instead.. i think it's pretty clear the devs didn't have any genuine caster player on their beta testing team.. things like these and the unusually high energy costs are very easily noticed if you have high level caster characters.. that or the devs just don't care about casters at all.. could be both


on a side note, why isn't torchlight frontiers still not released yet? I've been checking it every once in a while and it seems it still hasn't been released yet
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Prosoro on 22 May 2019, 02:07:58
@botebote77 I can agree with some of your points but for me I guess I'm more of a 'glass half full' type when looking at/playing with the new skills.

Ive only been using a caster (Evoker) since the dlc and am loving it.  Psionic Beam is frikken awesome and if anything has made my build even more viable in Legendary.  With skills like Storms new Lightning Dash, while it is more melee orientated, I see it as a much needed movement skill - heaven knows TQ masteries need moar movement skill options.

Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Hector on 22 May 2019, 02:32:42
Quote
Storm - tested with a bow/spear lightning sage.

Lightning dash - movement ability like take down. No idea what is it doing in storm mastery, I'd rather asked for more reliable crowd control there.

Arc discharge - does not make wisp do any notable damage on a non-summoner when maxed. No idea how it would fare on a dedicated summoner.

Earth - tested with a physical battlemage.

Meteor rain - rocks fall in a large radius around you in random locations, physical and burn damage. Damage is poor on a physical caster for an ability with such cooldown. Inability to target makes it even worse, if it misses, you'll be waiting some 40 sec to try again.

Fire nova - don't have an appropriate fire caster in legendary to test this.

What the hell is this?? Is this a damn joke??
All this time, Earth had already CC skills while Storm did not, and this is their new content to make this game better? Still giving utilities to the former while adding stupid, meaningless skills to the latter?

I remember criticizing these trash devs back in the day for their schemes and unfortunately, most of the folks here had given me the cold shoulder for it.
It looks like now everyone is starting to see through this company's bull****. Better late than never, I guess..   
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 22 May 2019, 03:09:53
@Hector , i was one of those.. apologies.. these devs doesn't know their game at all

@Prosoro , try running a squishy caster on late game legendary, using lighting dash for the sake of movement speed.. you just make yourself closer to dying.. chance to dodge will not help.. that's why i play on fully zoomed camera angle.. as a caster, you have to be careful and not just mindlessly rushing in

casters got the shorter end of the stick.. that much is obvious
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: mammoth_hunter on 22 May 2019, 11:28:55
Huh?  Squall is great for CC and Lightning Bolt isn't bad.
Yes, squall is not CC, thunderball and freezing blast are. Storm surge too. Thats a lot of CC skills in one mastery actually, but they are pretty terrible for a mastery called "storm". Thunderball is a small projectile on cooldown that is very easy to miss. Mobs actively avoid it by stepping to the side too when they see it. Freezing blast comes with a drawback of 80% damage adsorption for frozen mobs. And there are plenthy of stun and freeze immune mobs in the game, some are immune to both. Storm surge is a proc on taking hit so unreliable to build around. You can't, say, stun one particular pack of archers with it,  when they proc it with a single arrow from range, and then its on CD when you're close.

Compare it with menhir wall or core dweller that just work on anything. Or mandrake that also has no drawbacks if you use plenthy of weapon damage, and works on anything except bosses.

Its strange that something likes this happen when the community was involve in the first place. When they start recruit some long time player i was thinking that this Will have solve the most problem before It present itself  at the release. But It seams this isent the case. Maybe they Will need to open some poll for let the player choose what skill has to be modified and in what way.
Indeed, I have less time to play games than I'd like to now, but thought with community involved they will fugure something out in whatever they were doing. And yet they did not. How did that happened? Was community involved with the skill design at all? Or was it done in Ubisoft way, "We do what we want while the community is free to upvote it" - ?

@Prosoro , try running a squishy caster on late game legendary, using lighting dash for the sake of movement speed.. you just make yourself closer to dying.. chance to dodge will not help.. that's why i play on fully zoomed camera angle.. as a caster, you have to be careful and not just mindlessly rushing in casters got the shorter end of the stick.. that much is obvious
Evasion can actually work when stacked to around cap, 80%. If you stack it with dodge attack from warfare, you should see a notable damage reduction. But there are two issues still. Stacking evasion from gear is difficult, and more so than CTAP, so its not an easy to do thing in any case. And when the hit goes through evasion you take full damage. That means you still need other layers of defense together with it, to not get 1-2 shot by some mobs when using it. High DA, armor, damage absorption, damage reduction, etc. Of these, storm has physical damage reduction in squall and impaired aim, thats all, its incredibly fragile mastery. High cold and lightning absorption in energy shield since Ragnarok, but it sort of limited to these damage types.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: legowarrior on 22 May 2019, 16:28:11
I am love the new Nature Skills!  That is a lot of fun for my illusionist.  Too bad my traps are just too good at taking out everything at this point. 
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 23 May 2019, 03:20:25
to modders: how about this suggestion, if you really like lightning dash

since that 10 lighting damage is worthless anyway, how about remove that but instead it transmits/converts all weapon damage to lightning instead? that would really fit the name lightning dash, right? and it will now scale with static charge and eye of the storm

how the player will use a shield is up to the player.. pair it with rune or defense (armor handling).. equip lots of requirement reduction.. santa's shield.. or just use it with bow, if it works with bows.. last time i checked it works with thrown weapons
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 23 May 2019, 19:20:17
to modders: how about this suggestion, if you really like lightning dash

since that 10 lighting damage is worthless anyway, how about remove that but instead it transmits/converts all weapon damage to lightning instead? that would really fit the name lightning dash, right? and it will now scale with static charge and eye of the storm


how the player will use a shield is up to the player.. pair it with rune or defense (armor handling).. equip lots of requirement reduction.. santa's shield.. or just use it with bow, if it works with bows.. last time i checked it works with thrown weapons

Yes, that's what I suggested here.
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=980.msg11215;topicseen#new
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 25 May 2019, 11:04:28
more look at the skills:

meteor rain - i found my str + int earth + nature to really benefit from this.. first, the 2 reduced energy cost skills of nature really helps on the 400+ energy cost of meteor rain.. 2nd, meteor rain, refresh, meteor rain is deadly against both bosses and mobs.. but when i tried it in vanilla, there just aren't many mobs to justify this.. so it's only good in xmax.. but Atlantis does a good job of making the game slow to a crawl with xmax enabled, especially when casting meteor rain 2x.. but this character is currently unplayable because quick cast is broken for casters and when you disable quick cast, meteor rain forces you to click again even if it doesn't change the landing spot.. it's very clunky and this few seconds of delay can mean death to a squishy caster

but when i tried this and fire nova (300+ energy cost) on my elementalist, i had to use a pelaron just so i could cast them often.. staff of the cosmos reduces energy cost by 30% but meh squishy.. and you need str to justify using meteor rain anyway.. i have 300+ on my elementalist

unyielding phalanx isn't so bad even if they don't move because you can select where you place them.. this can be useful on a fully zoomed camera angle where the mobs won't see you but you can see them.. and yep i disabled quick cast.. also, if you stand beside them, mobs will follow you so they also get closer to the pets

perfect block - i know people say to use this against bosses and you have to time it perfectly.. but i find it too difficult to time.. but i found that at 80% CDR, the cooldown is only 2.1 secs.. the duration is 1.1 secs so if you spam this, there is only 1 sec of non-immortality.. i did this against 3 Hildisvini golden boars and also the mobs just after them.. the pets does a good job of killing the mobs whenever you can't attack because of perfect block spam.. very effective.. i also used this on the ichthian relic where, when you place it and the mini skeletons appear, the game becomes very laggy on any versions of xmax

it's also very good as a panic skill when your health becomes very low.. perfect block then immediately drinking potion can save you from certain death

edit: you need some cast speed for this.. i was using 2 sindris loop on my conqueror

lasting legacy - permanent ancestral warriors are OP.. +4 all skills and 80% CDR.. i could make my conqueror a petmaster.. but i find it still forces you to be part melee since you can't control the warriors and you have no briar ward to hide to.. maybe a petmaster slayer with monster lure.. those auras and the buff to CotH.. again, permanent ancestral warriors are OP

sadly, i just saw the imbalance more clearly and i lost my desire to play more.. yeah.. i know, i know.. I'm souring again.. hope the modders does a better job of balancing the game
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: gasconron on 27 May 2019, 08:13:21
Overall Impression on New Skills:

Given that they are the highest tiered skills in a mastery, they are expected to be awesome or game changing. However, most if not all, under perform to the expectations. A lot of them seem to diversify the current skill trees rather than act as an "ultimate"

Defense: Tested on Conqueror/Paladin/Juggernaut

1. Perfect Block - 100% absorption looks good on paper, the very short duration of the skill is questionable at best, which doesn't really offer any practical use. I'm not suggesting to increase duration to the levels of Stone Form as that would basically make any Defense-based melee unkillable (given the presumed sturdiness of the character), but at least to scale it to a level where in it can actually be used. One-Shot skills in this game (Barmanu Showers, Hades's BoD, Hydra Breath, Yaoguai Bleeds) last more than 1.1 sec. Imagine activating Perfect Block on a shower, absorbing it, only to die on the residual effect of the meteors bouncing on the ground, cuz 1.1 sec is up.  It doesn't scream "ultimate", more like "lol what-a-troll". Increasing max duration to 2.5 or even 2 seconds would make it more impactful.

2. Phalanx - seriously wth, this skill has no business being in the defense mastery. Not everything needs to synergize with a specific concept. If people want to play a summoner class, they can pick Defense 2ndary to increase their survivability. Just because that phalanx line has shields and armored soldiers doesn't mean it justifies it's existence in the mastery.  Even if you were to argue that casters that pick a Defense 2ndary can use this to kite and redistribute agro on to the Phalanx (assuming it does just that), what use does it have for melee? Absolutely Zero.

* 1 horrid concept and the other poorly executed. If Colossus was swapped to Mastery lvl 40 as the Ultimate Skill, I'll forgive it since it give 60% dmg absorp, some HP and a boost in % STR. It had what makes an ultimate skill (it was the "ultimate" pre-Atlantis), it had ooomphh, it had gameplay impact and it turned the tides of battle. These 2 new additions don't.

Warfare: Tested on Conqueror/Champion

1. Slam - just because it looks cool doesn't mean it's effective. While it looks like Dactyl's wave of pew-pew, doesn't mean it hits or works like it. Stun on it isn't as potent warhorn but the ~4 sec skill disrupt is pretty nifty. Had this been pre-Anniversary that 20 % life reduction would have been amazing and worth the 146 mana to activate it at max level. However, AE buffed life reduction resists on bosses and sub-bosses so much that I dropped "of Harrowing" on my ternion casters. This stat is absolutely useless in Legendary now, as an effect this skill doesn't deal nearly enough damage to justify its high mana cost (for melee) and it's place in the skill tree.

2. Lasting Legacy - Ancestral Horn is actually a good skill for summoners, when used in conjuction with Battle Standard + Triumph with Nature's SotP or Dream's Mastermind. Lasting Legacy actually earns it's spot as an ultimate skill (under the right circumstance) given how much it buffs the usability and effectiveness of Ancestral Horn. HOWEVER, what does it do for non-casters and non-summoners? Absolutely nothing. At best a melee-based toon will put 1 pt in ancestral horn as a tool for distraction, to avoid the initial agro of the boss or to buy time for himself in mob fights while he recovers. That extra seconds of living doesn't help anyone with a low investment on AC since duration increase means nothing if the summons are dead due to low HP.

Storm: Tested on Elementalist/Sage/Thane/Paladin

1. Lightning Dash - Solely for the use of a Hybrid Melee and a slap to the face of most Storm main users. Making an Ultimate skill for the use of the minority (melee hybrids) is a nonsensical decision. Why does this surprise despite the existence of Phalanx and Lasting Legacy? Late game with difficulty/spawn increase mods active, most casters don't scale well and need the utility and boost; Had this been made a designated or even random "blink"/phase/teleport skill that had a CtAP and CtDA % bonus decaying residual effect, that would have been a fitting ultimate skill.  But the fact that it needed a target for you to get to in MELEE range was an idiotic design made by someone who obviously didn't play this game and was oblivious to what casters needed to stay relevant end-game.

2. Arc Discharge - i didn't really notice it's relavance, which means it had very little to no impact on gameplay. For a lvl 40 mastery skill? come on...

Earth: Tested on Elementalist/Avenger/Battlemage/Juggernaut

1. Meteor Shower - decent damage to say the least, but the STR investment needed to scale up the skill dmg is a turnoff to casters, who are invested in INT due to most Earth skills scaling off INT. So when you use MS on a 100% INT caster, that ultimate skill doesn't hit like an Ultimate anymore. This skill was clearly designed for Hybrid melees that need more sources of dmg other than auto attacks, since their mixed stats produce little to no dmg in other skills in Earth tree. Irony is that most melee-hybrids also suffer from a naturally small energy pool which can't take much spamming/consecutive casting; and this skill is a mana hog. Unless I find myself facing a horde angrily rushing my squishy melee-hybrid, i wouldn't want to cast it in any other situation, even on boss fights. Imagine fighting a boss, and you needed to use stoneform, but couldn't cuz your manapot is on cooldown and Meteor Shower just  took your mana pool from 80% to 0. Call me a nitpicker, but I always play under Hardcore circumstances, stuff like this happen a lot more than one would like to admit. The damage/effectiveness of the skill does not justify the absurd mana cost of the skill which is already on relatively high cooldown. This skill has the potential to be an actual "Ultimate" skill, but it needs some tweaks to be deserving that status.

2. Fire Nova - On a caster, I actually like it. I have literally no complaints on this skill aside from the fact that it's not flashy enough. :D Full screen cast effect with a 360 degree FoV coverage. Decent damage scaling up until Legendary Act 4-5 (INT 1200+ caster) with relatively low CD (~4 secs) on capped CD reduction. When I first used this after being disappointed by other lvl 40 Mastery skill, i thought to myself: "this is what an ultimate skill should be like." It can be used practically by a caster, an auramancer or a melee hybrid.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 27 May 2019, 13:14:30
Imagine fighting a boss, and you needed to use stoneform, but couldn't cuz your manapot is on cooldown and Meteor Shower just  took your mana pool from 80% to 0.
yes absolutely.. but these things you only see when you actually play the game.. you just don't see it when writing theorycraft skills on paper

edit: and it's not just stone form.. it can be skills like distort reality, briar ward, flash powder, etc
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Bumbleguppy on 27 May 2019, 17:19:56
I have to confess, I have ArtManager open in my second monitor and I'm just doting on all this criticism of the new skills ! Keep it comin'!
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 27 May 2019, 19:42:57
some skills are clearly designed for hybrids.. but i bet if you ask these devs to make a hybrid and make it good till legendary, they don't know how to
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 27 May 2019, 20:35:00
Overall Impression on New Skills:

You don't need to have every skill good for every build. That's normal if Phalanx has no real use for melee builds, it's made for Defense summoners, it's on purpose that Meteor Rain is better for melee chars than casters (except for the cost, I agree), Lightning Dash isn't made for squishy casters, Lasting Legacy is made for summoners and doesn't have to offer a lot to other types of chars, etc. I find that perfectly normal that a skill may not be good for everyone as you don't have enough skill points to max every skill anyways.
This said, these skills need balance, and some of them have been placed on top of the trees but should belong to lower tiers.

For Perfect Block, it would need a larger CD if its duration is up to 2s, otherwise it would become too OP with -80% recharge.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 27 May 2019, 21:30:18
You don't need to have every skill good for every build.
in most other rpg games this is probably true.. but for this game i would disagree.. you don't need out of place skills.. if you want to stray a little bit from the build, that's what dual classing is for
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 27 May 2019, 22:26:45
in most other rpg games this is probably true.. but for this game i would disagree.. you don't need out of place skills.. if you want to stray a little bit from the build, that's what dual classing is for
I didn't say you need out of place skills (the definition of "out of place" being largely subjective). It's just that if every skill was good for every build then you wouldn't have to make strong choices. You would just have to max everything out, the only question being priorities between skills. It doesn't hurt to have different skills here and there, that are designed for specific use. TQ is lacking a bit of these kind of choices, you often feel like every skill is mandatory, like you're on rails and everything feels automatic.
If new skills make some unusual builds less exotic, that doesn't bother me at all.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 27 May 2019, 22:34:46
seems like we just have different tastes then.. it's ok

me, i like it if i have to make choices.. you don't have enough skills to max everything so you end up trying different skills and see what suits your tastes.. do you max skill A and ignore skill B? or max skill B and ignore skill A? or perhaps 5 pts each? i like to make those kinds of choices

so in that sense, i like every skill to be good for every build.. then i will just choose what skills to get

edit: if you already know what skills to ignore, then that kills those choices
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: WNG on 27 May 2019, 22:52:00
i like every skill to be good for every build..

Do you think it was the case Pre-Atlantis?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 28 May 2019, 00:03:21
i like every skill to be good for every build..

Do you think it was the case Pre-Atlantis?
i play casters so I'll only speak for casters.. I'd rather not touch on melee and archer builds as i don't play them often enough

yes for casters.. for example for storm, you are often presented with the choice to go lightning or ice shard build.. lightning scales with static charge and ice shard scales with heart of frost.. those costs too many skill points that you often have to choose between the two.. then there is another choice of getting both but if often comes at the expense of other good skills, sometimes largely ignoring your 2nd mastery

i am aware that people largely ignore thunder ball.. but it's not that it's useless, it's just hard to use/target.. it just needs some tweaking.. people also don't like freezing blast but me i put 1pt on that.. it's a good panic skill and it works very well against dactyl

earth - VO + eruption or flame surge? go mostly offensive and ignore core dweller or spare some points on core dweller? or maybe flame auramancer? although i don't know how effective this could be in endgame as I've never tried it.. but lots of choices and all can be useful

dream - i often just choose between distort reality and distortion wave.. if i put points on both, i don't max them both.. and even if i play melee, i still choose at least one of these skills

in AE + Rag, I've only played nature 2x, summoner and illusionist.. but in both those builds, I've put at least 1pt on all nature skills.. can't say about Atlantis, i don't play it (edit: nature is good support for casters)
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: gasconron on 28 May 2019, 05:05:17
You don't need to have every skill good for every build. That's normal if Phalanx has no real use for melee builds, it's made for Defense summoners, it's on purpose that Meteor Rain is better for melee chars than casters (except for the cost, I agree), Lightning Dash isn't made for squishy casters, Lasting Legacy is made for summoners and doesn't have to offer a lot to other types of chars, etc. I find that perfectly normal that a skill may not be good for everyone as you don't have enough skill points to max every skill anyways.
This said, these skills need balance, and some of them have been placed on top of the trees but should belong to lower tiers.

For Perfect Block, it would need a larger CD if its duration is up to 2s, otherwise it would become too OP with -80% recharge.

I can forgive everything else, even Phalanx whose existence I am reluctant to accept. But Lightning Dash, is a step too far bordering inconsideracy. Typical (STR) Melee Hybrids with a storm 2ndary generally don't  need this kind of utility. With enough ADCtH and a max+4 squall on top of your head, you can out-heal damage taken provided your not in mage gear, - resists, or a DA below 800. Even if you agro'd a horde in xMax. The only practical use I see for this skill is when you get yourself in big trouble and you target a stray archer/mage to get yourself out of that trouble. Using this skill like Charge, to close out distance between you and your intended target is "all flair and no substance."

All the bonus stats you get temporarily suggest that this was intended to be a safety skill, why not make it universally usable? You read the complaints from the previous posts, people are irked the Storm was gifted with the worst 2 new skilsl when everyone was screaming for a CC skill that is actually usable. Thunderball is hard to use efficiently while Freezing Blast is counter-productive. I interpret that as an actual need of defensive utility skill, rather than a need for actual CC.

When compared to the other "caster-based" classes, you could argue that Storm is one of the masteries lacking in defensive utility options that are actually effective.
1. Dream - Trance of Convalence, Temporal Flux, Lucid Dream, Distort Reality, Distortion Wave, Sands of Sleep
2. Earth - Stone Form, VO + Fragmentation (Defense on Offense), Heat Shield (Dmg Resistance & Fire Absorption)
3. Nature - HotO, Briar Ward, Heals, Refresh, Plague (slow, dmg reduction), Earthbind
* these masteries have strong sustain and CC utility skills.

----
4. Storm - Thunderball, Lightning Strike, Freezing Blast, Storm Surge, Energy Shield, Squall -
a. TB and LS have too small of a radius to be effective
b. Freezing Blast gives frozen peeps massive dmg reduction, so there is literally no followup to your CC
c. E Shield only works with Cold and Lightning, incomparison to Heat Shield that has dmg resistance% that is a more common problem for casters than other sources of dmg, Storm gets the short end of the stick.
d. Storm Surge is great for Melee Hybrids who is ok with getting hit, but on casters wanting to get hit for a chance to proc my defensive skill is a really bad deal.
e. Squall - literally the only reason why Storm is not at the bottom of the ladder in terms of Defensive Utility. One of the best defensive utility skills in the game, but not nearly enough to scale well into late-game.

5. Spirit - Ravages Tree, Sprit Ward, Death Ward - mastery with the worst defensive utility... but the fact that ADCtH % + Ternion allows this class to face-tank anything and everything, one can ask; does it actually need it?

Lightning Dash could have been the skill that Storm actually needed but was never given, because they opted to discriminate and design it in favor of melee hybrids.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 28 May 2019, 20:31:15
me, i like it if i have to make choices.. you don't have enough skills to max everything so you end up trying different skills and see what suits your tastes.. do you max skill A and ignore skill B? or max skill B and ignore skill A? or perhaps 5 pts each? i like to make those kinds of choices
Don't take me wrong, I like choices too and I am not really satisfied with the masteries design of Atlantis.
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills). Plus a lot of skills are not good enough for most builds, or some of them only deserve like 1 point. So I felt like the skill choices were really limited. You could end up in Legendary spending your points in skills you were not really needing.
Now it's a bit better because you have 8 points more in bars, not everybody will find use in the new skills though.
I prefer like in SV were you have even more mastery bar points to spend and even more skills. That way you have to let go on some skills or really have low level skills (strong choices then), and it doesn't hurt in this case to have a few exotic skills.

edit: if you already know what skills to ignore, then that kills those choices
It doesn't matter if you already know at level 1 that a skill isn't good for your build. There was indeed a choice when you choose an "archetype" (like caster, melee, summoner, etc) after choosing a dual class.
There is no choice when a skill is bad for every build, and in a sense when no one puts more than 1 point in a skill. In these cases, balance or design have a problem.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 28 May 2019, 21:32:34
The only practical use I see for this skill is when you get yourself in big trouble and you target a stray archer/mage to get yourself out of that trouble. Using this skill like Charge, to close out distance between you and your intended target is "all flair and no substance." All the bonus stats you get temporarily suggest that this was intended to be a safety skill, why not make it universally usable?
I think it's primarily made for comfort, not actual safety, and it does increase the clearspeed, especially for a slow char. Melee are sometimes kinda slow and that skill quickens the pace of the game for melee, I think it's welcomed for a Paladin or even Sage because of the lack of LMB skill. Granted it's a niche skill.
You suggested a teleport with a residual duration of dodge/CtAP. Why not, it would need a bit of cooldown though (not sure if its moddable) otherwise you would be untouchable.
Or maybe they could have make LD with a cooldown and a dodge duration after attacking, that depends on the length of the charge. It would have been a little more interesting to use.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 28 May 2019, 22:13:47
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills).
agreed.. upping the mastery bar to 40 was maybe the only thing i liked about the update

i have to be honest, i don't even have the game installed right now.. this blatant show of disrespect towards casters, to say that I'm disappointed is an understatement.. and seeing the modders got some problems with the updates.. i decided to not have the game installed for now.. but i still visit the forum regularly to read comments and chat a little bit.. perhaps over time i will have a cooler head and not be a constant sourgrape.. but i stand by my criticisms towards these devs

about lightning strike, i thought about this on a paladin but defense is defensive enough.. and with some CDR, I'm not sure I'll take it over batter as LMB.. and I'm not even sure it will be better than the old caster paladin build.. sage, a hybrid melee spear? i think I'd rather go with @mammoth_hunter 's bow elemental sage (https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=544.0)
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: WNG on 29 May 2019, 01:26:25
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills).
agreed.. upping the mastery bar to 40 was maybe the only thing i liked about the update

i have to be honest, i don't even have the game installed right now.. this blatant show of disrespect towards casters, to say that I'm disappointed is an understatement.. and seeing the modders got some problems with the updates.. i decided to not have the game installed for now.. but i still visit the forum regularly to read comments and chat a little bit.. perhaps over time i will have a cooler head and not be a constant sourgrape.. but i stand by my criticisms towards these devs

about lightning strike, i thought about this on a paladin but defense is defensive enough.. and with some CDR, I'm not sure I'll take it over batter as LMB.. and I'm not even sure it will be better than the old caster paladin build.. sage, a hybrid melee spear? i think I'd rather go with @mammoth_hunter 's bow elemental sage (https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=544.0)

I'm not going to disagree with you, as the changes haven't affected me in particular (since I only play one character.) However, I can't resist to wonder why you feel like the developpers had bad intentions? I don't think they added skills to directly disrespected anyone... Maybe a lack of knowledge, if we can call it that way?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 29 May 2019, 02:14:46
Maybe a lack of knowledge, if we can call it that way?
yeah.. ok.. I'll call it that.. still, ignorance with their own game is a dev crime .. if there is such a thing
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 29 May 2019, 07:21:49
just some thoughts.. but first, this lacks proper testing so i might be missing some things here

arc discharge - enhances thunderclap ability of wisp

in other words, it only activates when your wisp is at least lvl 5, right? but putting 4 additional skill points on wisp feels like a waste right? granted, it's not too difficult to get +4 all skills.. but a skill that only activates when you have +4 is... well.... icky

also, there are mastery shrines scattered throughout the game and the wisp don't die easily.. but what if it does then you have to wait to get another mastery shrine just so the wisp can use it.. act 4 plains of judgement, the wisp dies there easily.. also iirc act 5 against jotuns

then a lesser issue.. it deals elemental damage so in order to get the most of it is you equip elemental pet rings.. but what other permanent pets deal elemental damage? core dweller and? as said in another thread, lich king does not benefit from flat elemental damage from pet rings except when it casts arcane blasts.. but the liche does not cast it often enough to justify wearing elemental pet rings.. and who would build a petmaster oracle anyway? the nymph has poor target AI and the wolves benefit mostly from physical pet rings because of SotP.. although this is lesser issue because you can still play elemental damage traps and perhaps getting your doppelganger to deal elemental damage

the stun may be of use.. maybe? storm still needs a reliable CC that you can cast at will though.. and back to above.. you still need +4 or else you don't get any benefit from it
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: WNG on 29 May 2019, 12:10:51
If I'm not mistaken, if you use a Mastery Shrine and summon a pet while under its effect, the pet will be of higher level, but it won't lower down when the effect wears off.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 29 May 2019, 12:20:05
If I'm not mistaken, if you use a Mastery Shrine and summon a pet while under its effect, the pet will be of higher level, but it won't lower down when the effect wears off.
yes.. i said that, but not directly.. i just assumed everybody knows it already.. but a skill that only activates when you find a mastery shrine? that loses some appeal.. and it doesn't have much appeal to begin with

and even as early as act 1 it has a high chance of dying against shadowmaw and telkine
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: WNG on 29 May 2019, 12:27:22
I see your point, and could understand why it's a bit clunky, but I guess it gives another the wisp another purpose other than a buffer. It's situational, doesn't fit every build. I don't think the skill itself bad, but its placement is. It could've swapped with Eye of the Storm IMO, even though devs can't do such things without messing everyone's characters.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 29 May 2019, 12:33:53
just some thoughts.. but first, this lacks proper testing so i might be missing some things here

arc discharge - enhances thunderclap ability of wisp

in other words, it only activates when your wisp is at least lvl 5, right? but putting 4 additional skill points on wisp feels like a waste right? granted, it's not too difficult to get +4 all skills.. but a skill that only activates when you have +4 is... well.... icky

also, there are mastery shrines scattered throughout the game and the wisp don't die easily.. but what if it does then you have to wait to get another mastery shrine just so the wisp can use it.. act 4 plains of judgement, the wisp dies there easily.. also iirc act 5 against jotuns

then a lesser issue.. it deals elemental damage so in order to get the most of it is you equip elemental pet rings.. but what other permanent pets deal elemental damage? core dweller and? as said in another thread, lich king does not benefit from flat elemental damage from pet rings except when it casts arcane blasts.. but the liche does not cast it often enough to justify wearing elemental pet rings.. and who would build a petmaster oracle anyway? the nymph has poor target AI and the wolves benefit mostly from physical pet rings because of SotP.. although this is lesser issue because you can still play elemental damage traps and perhaps getting your doppelganger to deal elemental damage

the stun may be of use.. maybe? storm still needs a reliable CC that you can cast at will though.. and back to above.. you still need +4 or else you don't get any benefit from it
- Yes, at least Wisp lvl5 so Arc Discharge skill can have effect on Wisp's Thunder Clasp.
But why you spend any point to Arc Discharge skill if you don't intent to play pet build or want Wisp deal dmg for you? I mean, if you want to Wisp deal dmg for you, so you must be lvl up Wisp skill. As high as Wisp lvl up, Wisp tougher. If you just want Wisp have CC skill to provoke enemies for you, so no need to spend any point to Arc Discharge.
- There are items that + All skills/Storm Skills/Wisp skill, so if you want you still can get lv5 Wisp with just 1 skill point spent into Wisp.
- Liche King default attack still get benefit from +% Elemental dmg for pets, i tested already. Like with max lvl+4 Liche King, his default attack deal 411 dmg ( Purple color) on dummies at Sparta Camp. With 2xAlfather Jewel ring +100 elemental dmg * 15%, total is +30% elemental dmg, now he deal 465 dmg on dummies. So clearly there is something "incorrect" with this pet.
- Outsider get benefit from +flat elemental dmg.
- Why not Pet Oracle? You don't want not mean all people don't want.
- Wolves good with physical dmg, but when facing Hades 3rd form, equipped items that +flat elemental dmg is better than stick with +flat/%physical dmg.
- Doppleganger from scale dmg by character, not pets.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 29 May 2019, 12:41:17
well, as i said, i don't play the game anymore.. i don't even have it installed right now.. so a question @icefreeze , is it worth any point? just lvl 1? or if it's worth more points, at what lvl does it deserve more points?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 29 May 2019, 12:46:56
well, as i said, i don't play the game anymore.. i don't even have it installed right now.. so a question @icefreeze , is it worth any point? just lvl 1? or if it's worth more points, at what lvl does it deserve more points?
Arc Discharge boost Thunder Clasp dmg and spread to enemies nearby, so if you play pet builds, you should increase it to increase AOE dmg of Wisp.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Tauceti on 31 May 2019, 01:20:16
Here are Atlantis skill features at max and ultimate levels for mage-oriented characters

Storm
Arc discharge (8/8)
214 - 326 lightning damage
0.5s of stun

Arc discharge (12/8)
300-452 lightning damage
0.5s of stun

Lightning dash (8/8)
5 energy cost
10 lightning damage
+444% movement speed
54% chance to dodge attacks
54% chance to avoid projectile

Lightning dash (12/8)
5 energy cost
10 lightning damage
+444% movement speed
80% chance to dodge attacks
80% chance to avoid projectile

Spirit
Soul drain (6/6)
8.0m radius
42% reduction to enemy's health
150 vitality damage
21% energy drain
2.0s of sleep
+200% damage to ghosts

Soul drain (10/6)
8.0m radius
66% reduction to enemy's health
150 vitality damage
33% energy drain
2.0s of sleep
+200% damage to ghosts

Soul vortex (10/10)
70s recharge
165 energy cost
4s duration
5.0m radius
144 life leech per second
48 energy leech per second
50% slowed for 1.0s
100% life leech resistance
100% energy leech resistance

Soul vortex (14/10)
70s recharge
165 energy cost
4s duration
5.0m radius
192 life leech per second
64 energy leech per second
50% slowed for 1.0s
100% life leech resistance
100% energy leech resistance

Nature
Sylvan protection (8/8)
18 energy cost
234-312 damage
119-156 piecing damage
22% reduction to enemy's health
66% reduced DA for 2.8s
2.8s of immobilization
75% slower movement for 3.8s

Sylvan protection (12/8)
22 energy cost
330-440 damage
167-220 piecing damage
30% reduction to enemy's health
66% reduced DA for 3.8s
3.8s of immobilization
75% slower movement for 4.8s

Earthbind (12/12)
20s recharge
98 energy cost
22m radius
180-240 poison damage over 5.0s
50% reduced DA for 5.0s
5.0s of immobilization
66% slower movement for 6.0s

Earthbind (16/12)
20s recharge
110 energy cost
22m radius
252-336 poison damage over 7.0s
50% reduced DA for 7.0s
7.0s of immobilization
66% slower movement for 8.0s

Dream
Dream image (8/8)
140s recharge
178 energy cost
extra lifetime 20s
dream image attributes:
lifetime 19.5s
3840 health
1920 energy
384-480 damage

Dream image (12/8)
140s recharge
194 energy cost
extra lifetime 27s
dream image attributes:
lifetime 27s
3840 health
1920 energy
384-480 damage

Psionic beam (6/6) only with staves
60% chance to pass through enemies
-1 charge level
60% increase projectile speed

Psionic beam (10/6) only with staves
100% chance to pass through enemies
-2 charge levels
100% increase projectile speed

Earth
Meteor rain (12/12)
45s recharge
414 energy cost
4.0s duration
3.5m radius
1200-1320 damage
180 burn damage over 3.0s
3s of stun

Meteor rain (16/12)
45s recharge
453 energy cost
4.0s duration
3.5m radius
1520-1672 damage
228 burn damage over 3.0s
3s of stun

Fire nova (8/8)
15s recharge
270 energy cost
20m radius
246 burn damage over 3.0s
82 fire damage
23% chance of impaired aim for 3.0s

Fire nova (12/8)
15s recharge
350 energy cost
20m radius
396 burn damage over 3.0s
132 fire damage
29% chance of impaired aim for 3.0s

I only tested some of these skills, not all.
Soul vortex (spirit mastery) was excellent on my spellbreaker, it helps sustaining high damage from a crowd. I would have preferred a 6s duration though.
Psionic beam (dream mastery) is a really good skill: finally good staves (and they are many of them) will find a use with this skill !
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.


Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 31 May 2019, 04:11:28
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.
if the damage is automatically converted to lightning, then it would be more usable.. because then you wouldn't need conversion to elemental items.. as someone who has tried conversion to elemental without rune, i can say it's extremely difficult to make it even comparable to the usual str+dex builds.. it's good until epic but in legendary, it's extremely difficult

bow is possible because it has low str requirements but then it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 31 May 2019, 04:24:18
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.
if the damage is automatically converted to lightning, then it would be more usable.. because then you wouldn't need conversion to elemental items.. as someone who has tried conversion to elemental without rune, i can say it's extremely difficult to make it even comparable to the usual str+dex builds.. it's good until epic but in legendary, it's extremely difficult

bow is possible because it has low str requirements but then it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
If you equipped range weapon, Lightning Dash just dash to the place you can attack enemies by your default attack, not melee range.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 31 May 2019, 04:40:10
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.
if the damage is automatically converted to lightning, then it would be more usable.. because then you wouldn't need conversion to elemental items.. as someone who has tried conversion to elemental without rune, i can say it's extremely difficult to make it even comparable to the usual str+dex builds.. it's good until epic but in legendary, it's extremely difficult

bow is possible because it has low str requirements but then it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
If you equipped range weapon, Lightning Dash just dash to the place you can attack enemies by your default attack, not melee range.
yes i know.. like i said, it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 31 May 2019, 04:43:47
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.
if the damage is automatically converted to lightning, then it would be more usable.. because then you wouldn't need conversion to elemental items.. as someone who has tried conversion to elemental without rune, i can say it's extremely difficult to make it even comparable to the usual str+dex builds.. it's good until epic but in legendary, it's extremely difficult

bow is possible because it has low str requirements but then it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
If you equipped range weapon, Lightning Dash just dash to the place you can attack enemies by your default attack, not melee range.
yes i know.. like i said, it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
You still have Dodge + Avoid Projectile effect when dash.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 31 May 2019, 04:57:00
On the other hand, i couldn't find a good use of lightning dash so far.
if the damage is automatically converted to lightning, then it would be more usable.. because then you wouldn't need conversion to elemental items.. as someone who has tried conversion to elemental without rune, i can say it's extremely difficult to make it even comparable to the usual str+dex builds.. it's good until epic but in legendary, it's extremely difficult

bow is possible because it has low str requirements but then it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
If you equipped range weapon, Lightning Dash just dash to the place you can attack enemies by your default attack, not melee range.
yes i know.. like i said, it defeats the purpose of lightning dash
You still have Dodge + Avoid Projectile effect when dash.
I'd rather pair it with hunting then and get marksmanship

edit: projectiles has never been a problem of storm because of squall
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 31 May 2019, 21:04:32
@icefreeze you said doppelganger don't benefit from pet rings? does it benefit from nightmare mastermind?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: soa on 31 May 2019, 21:15:34
The Dream image has the Monster class, not the Pet class. So it doesn't benefit from pet bonuses.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 01 June 2019, 09:11:57
lol i tried lightning dash again, see if i could get away with low DA.. nope.. as expected, the 80% chance to dodge only works when you are dashing.. when you are at melee range already, the 80% dodge does not work.. so in a pack of say 10 monsters (which is common in xmax), you hit 1 and the other 9 get their free hits on you.. incredibly useless in legendary
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: WNG on 01 June 2019, 12:12:32
lol i tried lightning dash again, see if i could get away with low DA.. nope.. as expected, the 80% chance to dodge only works when you are dashing.. when you are at melee range already, the 80% dodge does not work.. so in a pack of say 10 monsters (which is common in xmax), you hit 1 and the other 9 get their free hits on you.. incredibly useless in legendary

How's that a surprise? The movement speed from Take Down for example only works for while you're dashing. Chances to dodge are no exception.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 02 June 2019, 05:44:34
This is "NEW" of Lightning Dash!
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 02 June 2019, 05:50:40
This is "NEW" of Lightning Dash!
i see.. so they realized it's uselessness

can you test if you can get back that 20 energy cost with energy leech? and how about monsters that don't have energy?

and that freeze, it doesn't have damage absorption?
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: icefreeze on 02 June 2019, 06:51:08
If your weapons have Energy Leech, Lightning Dash will trigger it.
As it show in the skill infor, just freeze, no dmg absorption on enemies.
And like the original game from now, enemies have no energy will can not be leech energy.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 02 June 2019, 08:16:49
it actually looks like a tier lvl 40 skill now.. at least on paper because i still lack testing

could be good with oracle, prophet, or druid since those 3 doesn't have any proc skills.. i just read that it doesn't proc passive skills.. also, those 3 have skills that help with mana
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: gasconron on 02 June 2019, 08:23:07
Quote
This is "NEW" of Lightning Dash!

this update actually made my day. my god awful ranting about Storm getting s#*% on actually meant something. Ill take some utility over no usable utility at all.

EDIT:
i was too hyped to notice its still a target skill rather than an activation one. i spoke too soon.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Tauceti on 03 June 2019, 00:59:19
2.6 update:
Changes from 2.5a to 2.6 are colored in red.

Storm
Arc discharge (8/8)
214 - 326 lightning damage
0.5s of stun

Arc discharge (12/8)
300-452 lightning damage
0.5s of stun

Lightning dash (8/8)
0.7s recharge
20 energy cost
+444% movement speed
54% chance to dodge attacks
54% chance to avoid projectile
20% chance of:
+200% total damage
20 lightning damage
1.0s of freeze

Lightning dash (12/8)
0.7s recharge
20 energy cost
+444% movement speed
80% chance to dodge attacks
80% chance to avoid projectile
32% chance of:
+200% total damage
20 lightning damage
1.0s of freeze

Spirit
Soul drain (6/6)
8.0m radius
42% reduction to enemy's health
150 vitality damage
21% energy drain
2.0s of sleep
+200% damage to ghosts

Soul drain (10/6)
8.0m radius
66% reduction to enemy's health
150 vitality damage
33% energy drain
2.0s of sleep
+200% damage to ghosts

Soul vortex (10/10)
70s recharge
165 energy cost
4s duration
5.0m radius
144 life leech per second
48 energy leech per second
50% slowed for 1.0s
100% life leech resistance
100% energy leech resistance

Soul vortex (14/10)
70s recharge
165 energy cost
4s duration
5.0m radius
192 life leech per second
64 energy leech per second
50% slowed for 1.0s
100% life leech resistance
100% energy leech resistance

Nature
Sylvan protection (8/8)
18 energy cost
234-312 damage
119-156 piecing damage
22% reduction to enemy's health
66% reduced DA for 2.8s
2.8s of immobilization
75% slower movement for 3.8s

Sylvan protection (12/8)
22 energy cost
330-440 damage
167-220 piecing damage
30% reduction to enemy's health
66% reduced DA for 3.8s
3.8s of immobilization
75% slower movement for 4.8s

Earthbind (12/12)
20s recharge
196 energy cost
22m radius
180-240 poison damage over 5.0s
50% reduced DA for 5.0s
5.0s of immobilization
66% slower movement for 6.0s

Earthbind (16/12)
20s recharge
220 energy cost
22m radius
252-336 poison damage over 7.0s
50% reduced DA for 7.0s
7.0s of immobilization
66% slower movement for 8.0s

Dream
Dream image (8/8)
140s recharge
178 energy cost
extra lifetime 20s
dream image attributes:
lifetime 19.5s
1500 health
750 energy
384-480 damage

Dream image (12/8)
140s recharge
194 energy cost
extra lifetime 27s
dream image attributes:
lifetime 27s
1500 health
750 energy
384-480 damage

Psionic beam (6/6) only with staves
60% chance to pass through enemies
-1 charge level
60% increase projectile speed

Psionic beam (10/6) only with staves
100% chance to pass through enemies
-2 charge levels
100% increase projectile speed

Earth
Meteor rain (12/12)
45s recharge
414 energy cost
4.0s duration
3.5m radius
1200-1320 damage
180 burn damage over 3.0s
3s of stun

Meteor rain (16/12)
45s recharge
453 energy cost
4.0s duration
3.5m radius
1520-1672 damage
228 burn damage over 3.0s
3s of stun

Fire nova (8/8)
15s recharge
270 energy cost
20m radius
246 burn damage over 3.0s
82 fire damage
23% chance of impaired aim for 3.0s

Fire nova (12/8)
15s recharge
350 energy cost
20m radius
396 burn damage over 3.0s
132 fire damage
29% chance of impaired aim for 3.0s

Rogue
Blade barrier (10/10)
30s recharge
145 energy cost
10s duration
2.5m radius
55 bleeding damage per sec
110 piercing damage
4% reduction to enemy's health

Blade barrier (14/10)
30s recharge
165 energy cost
10s duration
2.5m radius
75 bleeding damage per sec
150 piercing damage
6% reduction to enemy's health

Poison mayhem (8/8)
3 projectiles
25% chance of impaired aim for 4.0s
50% chances of 2.0 of fear

Poison mayhem (12/8)
4 projectiles
30% chance of impaired aim for 4.0s
66% chances of 2.0 of fear

Warfare
Slam (12/12)
7s recharge
146 energy cost
346-366 damage
20% reduction to enemy's health
70% chances of impaired aim for 3.2s
3.2 - 4.8s of skill disruption
1.0 - 2.0s of stun

Slam (16/12)
7s recharge
170 energy cost
480-500 damage
20% reduction to enemy's health
70% chances of impaired aim for 4.0s
4.0 - 6.0s of skill disruption
1.0 - 2.0s of stun

Lasting legacy (6/6)
extra lifetime 21s

Lasting legacy (10/6)
extra lifetime 40s

Defense
Unyielding phalanx (8/8)
80s recharge
140 energy cost
extra lifetime 13s
Elysian soldier attributes:
lifetime 13.0s
425 health
140 damage
60 piercing damage
40% slower movement for 2.0s

Unyielding phalanx (12/8)
80s recharge
156 energy cost
extra lifetime 17s
Elysian soldier attributes:
lifetime 17.0s
425 health
143 damage
61 piercing damage
40% slower movement for 2.0s

Perfect block (6/6)
9.7s recharge
1.1 s duration
100% damage absorption
+52% movement speed
-100% attack speed
-100% casting speed
1.0 - 2.0s stun retaliation

Perfect block (10/6)
6.6s recharge
1.1 s duration
100% damage absorption
+100% movement speed
-100% attack speed
-100% casting speed
1.0 - 2.0s stun retaliation

Hunting
Finesse (8/8)
2.0% chance of 50% reduction to enemy's health
+450 offensive ability
+10% offensive ability

Finesse (12/8)
2.0% chance of 50% reduction to enemy's health
+650 offensive ability
+10% offensive ability

Spear dance (12/12)
18s recharge
93 energy cost
360 arc of attack
+24% physical damage
52% chance of 1.0 - 3.0s of fear
-50% slower attack for 2.0s

Spear dance (16/12)
18s recharge
105 energy cost
360 arc of attack
+40% physical damage
68% chance of 1.0 - 3.0s of fear
-50% slower attack for 2.0s

Rune
Rune storm (6/6)
120s recharge
300 energy cost
10s duration
7m radius
105 damage
70 elemental retaliation
Chance for one of the following:
1s of skill disruption
1s of stun
1s of fear
1s of confusion

Rune storm (10/6)
120s recharge
300 energy cost
10s duration
9m radius
165 damage
110 elemental retaliation
Chance for one of the following:
1s of skill disruption
1s of stun
1s of fear
1s of confusion

Rune field (12/12)
300 energy cost
6s duration
24 projectiles

Rune field (16/12)
400 energy cost
8s duration
30 projectiles

Note that Perfect block (defense mastery) is the only skill for which recharge time is reduced with skill points. At ultimate level 6.6s means with 80% CDR that a defender is nearly unreachable.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 03 June 2019, 06:08:55
Note that Perfect block (defense mastery) is the only skill for which recharge time is reduced with skill points. At ultimate level 6.6s means with 80% CDR that a defender is nearly unreachable.
yes.. and with +4 and 80% CDR and all you do is cast prefect block every 1.+ secs, it's as good as unkillable.. but you need pets or reflect damage to do the killings

edit: needs some cast speed

i take back what i said on lightning dash.. it indeed doesn't proc passive skills like shield attacks and volley.. and with some CDR, that 0.7 sec cooldown is like zero.. with melee sage or paladin, normal attack is better

edit: "with melee sage or paladin, normal attack is better"
nope maybe not
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: botebote77 on 16 June 2019, 23:21:07
actually i found another use of lightning dash.. of you bind it to RMB (not LMB), you don't need a target for it to dash.. you can click on the ground and it will dash.. but the catch is, you only dash if you use a ranged weapon.. i haven't tried with a staff but it works with bows and thrown weapons.. also, because it only works with ranged weapons, the dashing distance is limited

edit: RMB or any number skill slot.. but if you bind it number skill, you have to enable quick cast.. which i refuse to do because devs hasn't still fixed quick cast + shift bug
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Bumbleguppy on 17 June 2019, 00:06:30
One "bug" for me with Quick Cast is the distacnce profile setting in the buff other skills: Energy Shield, Heat Shield, Life RUne...they are set as distance profile Long or Moderate which is 17m and 10m respectively (set in gameengine.dbr in xpack/game).

Casting a buff on a pet like Regrowth while it is in a mob, the game force moves you to the distance profile in that skills file. So I was running into a horde of monstes with my squishy petmancer lol

These all need a distance profile of MAXIMUM to offset this issue using Quick Cast. Really, there's no reason they shouldn't be set to maximum.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Xerxes on 04 September 2019, 12:05:44
Casting a buff on a pet like Regrowth while it is in a mob, the game force moves you to the distance profile in that skills file. So I was running into a horde of monstes with my squishy petmancer lol

These all need a distance profile of MAXIMUM to offset this issue using Quick Cast. Really, there's no reason they shouldn't be set to maximum.
I always had several problems with the Regrowth skill, not just with quick cast.

1. Dissemination almost never heals pets/followers that need the healing but it applies to those that are still at full health and the beaten down pet dies...
2. Dissemination has a very short range so it doesn't even use all 3 of its sparks most of the time.
3. In the heat of battle it is almost impossible for me to target a specific pet with Regrowth because they run around like chickens.

I fixed all of the issues with some slight modifications to Dissemination.

1. Dissemination now applies to 3;3;3;3;4;4;4;4;5;5;5;5;6;6;6;6 targets depending on skill level. If I invest enough skill points (and I do) I can now heal all my pets and don't have to rely on pure luck anymore.
2. Instead of the default 8m range of the Dissemination sparks I set it to 20m. This way the skill works much more reliably and only fails if a pet/follower has ran too far away. If I'm close enough I can simply target myself with Regrowth (much easier for me) and my pets are still healed.

Call me a cheater but for me this modification was a requirement to get rid of some interface frustration.
Title: Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
Post by: Xerxes on 04 September 2019, 13:52:33
Btw. I would like to add my opinion on the new skills that came with Atlantis. I have only tried some of them yet because I only recently came back to TQ.

Dream:
Psionic Beam - Now this is something my dream mage loves. Play TQ the Darth Sidious way and cast a constant stream of lightning on your enemies? No problem! :D

Earth:
Meteor Rain - I like it. Yes, it's only 8 projectiles and they can miss but what they hit is in a world of pain. The only thing I would change (have changed) is the damage type. Meteors should do physical and fire damage just like the Typhon meteor shower does. So I changed the damage to 50/50 Physical/Fire type.

Fire Nova - What's not to love about this skill? It has 360° coverage and 20m range. It even goes through walls! I usually use it for hit&run tactics.

Rogue:
Poison Mayhem - This is a great addition to the Poison Gas Bomb skill. Well, it was a great addition if the angles for the additional bombs weren't so absurdly high. 30° - 40° per bomb? Honestly? These angles make the skill useless for anything except empty rooms... The angles need to be lowered a lot. I set them to 15° in my game and now the skill works like it should have from the beginning. The bombs are now thrown in a nice fan.

Rune:
Rune Storm - I tested it for a short time but if you aren't a melee fighter or auramancer (my rune master is not) you will probably not have much use for it.

Rune Field - A good idea that allows the Rune Master to litter the field with mines but even with maxed mine skills it takes a lot of hits to kill even trash mobs. With the excessive energy costs of this skill I would have expected a bit more bang for the buck. Mines need tuning in general I believe but at least they can hinder the enemy's advance so the player has more time to send some more damage their way.

Storm:
Lightning Dash - Now that must be the most useless skill ever in TQ. What's a melee skill doing in a caster mastery? It doesn't even have a use as support skill. I had to replace it completely.

If someone is interested I replaced the Lightning Dash skill in the Storm mastery tree by a blizzard type skill. At first I thought about something like the Barmanu Blizzard but the animation doesn't look good enough for what I had in mind so I chose a chilling air type instead. It can be targeted freely and has these stats:

Code: [Select]
Blizzard
Cast a whirlwind of icy air to freeze your enemies.

35s Recharge
6s Duration

Level1:
300 Energy Cost
4m Radius
160-176 Cold Damage
20-25 Frostburn Damage
10% Slowed for 3s
5% Chance for 1-3s of Freeze

Level 12:
414 Energy Cost
7.3m Radius
600-660 Cold Damage
240-300 Frostburn Damage
43% Slowed for 3s
38% Chance for 1-3s of Freeze

Level 16:
453 Energy Cost
8.5m Radius
760-836 Cold Damage
320-400 Frostburn Damage
55% Slowed for 3s
50% Chance for 1-3s of Freeze

I can provide the files if anyone is interested in testing this in Legendary. My Thunderer hasn't made it this far yet. The only downside with this skill is currently the bug that characters disappear when frozen. I hope this gets fixed soon.
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