Titan Quest Fans Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 01:09:59

Title: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 01:09:59

So I am a level 24 Rogue right now still in act 1 of Normal, and I am trying to pick another mastery. I want to make a character who uses throwing weapons (like throwing knives), perhaps even dual throwing knives. I like poison and bleed, but have read that many creatures have resists to these, so I wanted to throw in some elemental damage. I have currently been looking at the Rune mastery, and think it will make an interesting hybrid with my Rogue. However, after much reading, I am still confused about what to put my stat points into (have like 20 saved up). I know I want dex for the increase in poison and bleeding, but I am unsure if I then want strength, or intelligence. I'm guessing that the answer to that will depend on if I am using transmutation or not... but I am still a bit fuzzy on the details of how that all works. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Pazuzu on 31 January 2018, 01:28:12

Well if you go for elemental damage INT will help. Strength should be used only for gear requirements especially in characters that do not rely on strength for damage.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 31 January 2018, 07:48:57

Reckless Offense in Rune will allow dual wield of throwing weapons.  And Runeword: Feather will help reduce the strength requirements for weapons and shields.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 14:35:07

So I got that rune has dual wielding (which is one reason I like it) and the ability to lower strength requirements. I also know that int Increases elemental damage. What I am unclear on is what would be the best stat focus for a throwing weapon build.... Dex and str without transmutation, dex and int with transmutation, or all three with just Some levels of transmutation for a mix of damage, if that's possible...?

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Firebrand on 31 January 2018, 16:14:21

It's a bit tricky, because elemental conversion competes with pierce conversion.

Elemental conversion happens before pierce conversion, so if you invest a lot of skill points into Transmutation, you'll get less damage return on your dexterity; it'll still boost your bleeding and poison damages, of course, but there'll be less pierce damage for it to increase. If you don't put a lot of points into Transmutation, then it's almost not worth putting any points into intelligence at all. In this case you'll probably want to use Calculated Strike over Runic Weapon anyway, so there'd be virtually no benefit to intelligence.

There comes the issue that for Transmutation to work, you will need to use Rune Weapon, which competes against Calculated Strike for your left mouse button. I figure it's possible to use both, but that sounds a bit convoluted to me, personally. Up to you.

Personally I think that going for Trickster should be fine even if you don't go for the elemental damage. If you want to dual-wield throwing weapons, Assassin is the other choice. Warfare does offer some nice things to you, such as some crowd control in the form of War Horn, Ancestral Horn for nice summonables, Battle Standard, and of course Weapon Training. On the other hand, here's why I think I'd go with Rune anyway:
- Reckless Offense is easily better than Dual Wield, no matter the circumstances.
- Thunder Strike, especially with two throwing weapons equipped, is an absolute blast, and Warfare offers no similar substitute.
- In a similar vein, I'll recommend in advance to put a single point in Seal of Fate and to (eventually) max Aftershock. The resistance reduction the skill offers is brutal, and, yet again, something Warfare doesn't offer. It shouldn't matter too much against regular enemies, but bosses will go down like nothing. Might be useful against the undead, too, to reduce their pierce resistance.
- Runeword: Explode is a passive attack trigger that works with throwing weapons, and gives you a good source of area-of-effect damage (everything from the attack is also applied to the other enemies hit by it, including poison and bleeding!), and gives some good basic physical and fire (and with the upgrade, burn) damage to deal with pesky undead who'll resist your poison and bleeding damage.
- Sacred Rage is arguably better than Battle Rage for throwers.
- While Guardian Stones are stationary, they're excellent at drawing the attention of enemies (even bosses), and actually dish some good damage out.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 17:29:38

Firebrand, thanks for all the great info (i was especially curious about how rune weapon explode worked, what damage got spread, etc). I completely agree with you about going for rune over warfare, for all the reasons you listed. So I guess it comes down which to use: calculated strike  or rune weapon. Which is better? If going with caculated strike, then you would suggest putting points in dex and str, right? And if going for rune weapon, then you recommend going for dex and int? And would there be a third option of going for rune weapon without transmutation? Would the benefits of those first three skills outweigh calculated strike? And if so, you would do dex and str still or a mix of dex, str and int, as int would boost some of the other elemental skills?

Thanks again for the input. Sorry for all the questions, but I like thoroughly researching my builds before I invest in them, especially in the things you can't change (stat points).

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: botebote77 on 31 January 2018, 19:56:55

is it ok if i finally put my 2 cents here? i wasn't commenting because i thought that you were decided on rune.. but since you're considering warfare, i figure i'd butt in.. rune is better than warfare maybe if you're strictly for throwing weapons.. but if you're considering other skills warfare could be better than rune mainly because of battle standard and traps.. it would require some farming because you need 70%+ CDR but that is damn strong and you could also mix throwing weapons

now if you're considering using other skills to support throwing weapons, there are other masteries (i think all except defense because shield attack procs doesn't work with throwing weapons).. i mean look at hunting for example, you could go the old bow brigand build just substitute throwing for bow.. and blade honing works for throwing whereas it doesn't for bow.. you have study prey so you could go the piercing way which you said you wanted.. traps are also pets in AE so they benefit from AotH and CotH

now since you have lots of unspent stat points (good thing), you are open to more builds like throwing knives.. here is how my throwing knife caster work

https://youtu.be/5wV3mvWKepo

or you could use knives to just spread confusion and/or RR.. then kill with other skills like throwing.. or go melee so you could finally mix defense.. being tanky with traps and confusion.. but that is not what you want i think

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 21:34:33

I was waiting for you to chime in bote... Believe it or not I have been doing a ton of research on this... And everywhere I go - steam forums, reddit, random threads - you are on there giving information. I thought to myself, "this guy is bound to show up and give his advice", which I appreciate, because you clearly know a lot about this stuff. I do like your caster build, and have read through it several times via links from other sites. I do want to use  those knives too, but wanted some actual weapons  to compliment.

As far as warfare goes, the skills in rune just seem to appeal to me more, for all the reasons firebrand said. I considered hunting, but  seemed like just more bleed and pierce, which I have read can be ineffective against certain enemies. And with it just being mainly buffs and not many unique abilities, it felt boring. Hence  I am strongly leaning towards rune.
 
But I can't seem to get my head around this one aspect of the build (calc strike vs rune weapon, stat distribution). In fact, I read a post of yours on Reddit where you said

 "experiment on CS and rune weapon.. CS deals good damage and penetrates enemies every 4th hit.. rune weapon has %int and % total damage so it also boosts thunder strike and runeword explode more.. "

So what would be your view of these? And out of the stat options in that thread you listed, what do you think would work best (be most effective)?

And also, for "total damage" modifier, does that mean that if I have a knife with 20 physical, 20 poison, and 20 bleed, that with a "+100% total damage" modifier (like in reckless offense) that  would then do 40 physical, 40 posion, and 40 bleed?

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 31 January 2018, 21:57:47

Bote, you once wrote:

"str/dex - good phys/pierce damage.. it's also easy to get high +%pierce damage, Apollo's will for example gives +100%pierce.. dex also boosts poison and bleed

hybrid (concentrating on all three) - this could be cool but hybrids are not easy for beginners.. so this depends on your experience in the game

pure int - good elem damage but having RR is always advisable in legendary.. you might be a glass cannon and you lose the benefits of lethal strike and blade honing.. having dex won't increase pierce because you likely will aim for 99% elem conversion"

Can you give me some more thoughts on these? Which do you think best, and why. How would the hybrid work?

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: botebote77 on 01 February 2018, 11:50:15

lulz.. i don't post in steam though

so it's strictly rune and it's strictly throwing weapon.. sadly dude that's all i can give you because i think it's a toss up.. i wouldn't advise you to go hybrid though.. it's possible that you deal better single target damage with int based but there's no denying you're much tankier with str based gear.. if you can spam thunder strike, that could be your survival.. pair that with 1/max/1/max envenom weapon.. but you'll need to farm for recharge gear for that.. it's probably easier to get recharge with int but you can also get that with str gear

for a safer route, you can follow medea's trickster thread.. that's mixed throwing weapon and throwing knife.. int based.. you'll also need some farming but those items are not hard to farm.. so yeah whether you want throwing knife (skill) or not.. i guess int based is the safer route. that is assuming (1) you don't have uber rare items in your tqvault yet and (2) you haven't spent too many stat points yet

for total damage, yeah that's right but pierce conversion doesn't mix well with transmutation.. for reasons firebrand said above

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 01 February 2018, 12:59:08

CircularReason, you'll find my Trickster journal here:

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=143.new#new

I'm a bit like you, not entirely sure where the attribute points should go.  I'm feeling my way as I go along. 

Why are you still in Act 1 Normal?  You should be well into Act 2 by that level. Are you re-running areas?  If so, for what purpose?  Or are you playing a mod like Xmax that increases foe numbers?

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 01 February 2018, 18:20:13

Just read through medeas' journal. That is the kind of trickster I want to build: a mix of throwing weapons and throwing knife skill, preferably with reckless offense, and also with thunderstorms. So it seems like you (medeas) are mixing the points as you go. You did take transmutation though. So I am assuming you would recommend that. Here is a question: transmutation only works when using the rune weapon skill, right? So could you use that for those creatures with resistance  pierce, and then calc strike for those without? Or are you doing the same idea but using the wing knife skill instead. Alas, that still leaves the issue of what to invest in, str or int.

As far as my level vs where I am at, yeah, I have been taking my time, farming some areas. Got the SB cuffs that bote recommended. Just started act 2 at level 25.  Spent only a few stat points, mainly in dex, cause I was originally  basing things on Bote's house of flying daggers build.
 
Just so you know guys, I am a complete noon at this game. This is actually my first time playing it. You all are experts, have multiple characters and playthroughs, hence why I am seeking to learn from your experience. I just happen to like theorycrafting in my first time through a game.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 01 February 2018, 19:59:56

Well, since Rune is new we're all sort of theorycrafting with it.  I haven't gotten up to the transmutation synergy of Rune Weapon yet, but I plan to take it.  Not using Thunderstrike.  Since targetting is difficult in TQ unless skills are on the LMB and RMB I don't have anywhere to put it.  Throwing Knife is on the RMB with Rune Weapon on the LMB, Runic Mines and Envenom Weapons on hotkeys.  Did try Seal of Fate for a bit, but couldn't target it properly so bought the points back.

Build is pretty simple

https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc41c841c8rune6c4e.html?mastery=Trickster&master1=10&master2=6&sa=30&m1=32-10-6-0-16-0-0-10-0-10-0-0-10-10-0-12-0-8-6-8-0&m2=32-0-0-12-12-1-8-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-12-0-8-0-0-6-0

It's L67 and I usually finished the base game at L60-61 on a straight playthrough so added a few more levels for the expansion, but it could end up being higher than that - not played it all the way through yet.  I may also put some points into Blade Honing and maybe Anatomy.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: botebote77 on 01 February 2018, 21:45:58

hmm i see you got str medea.. it could work with flat physical not from weapon like rage of ares and pendant of immortal rage.. but frankly, i still like going int and using eitr and primal magma/cold essence.. you'll have lots of CC anyway and rune weapon boosts them

circular yeah there's nothing like feeling out a game in your first playthrough.. as i said above, i like int build more.. those monster charms i mentioned, they only drop in act 5 but it's easy to farm for them. definitely get anatomy and 1pt in blade honing.. the 3rd upgrade of rune weapon, i would leave at 1pt.. at higher levels it boosts only slow and reduced offensive ability.. but it's a poor form of CC because rune weapon is single target only.. nightshade and mandrake through throwing knives is enough CC.. get life steal not from a weapon.. i didn't say it in my guide but i showed the pic of elemental rage (which is the artifact i would recommend).. but you don't need life steal early game.. when you farmed for SB cuffs, did you also get sthenos wisdom? that's what I'm wearing because it has physical res and casting speed.. it's also green so it's socketable

thunder strike hmm you can still get it by equipping also dual throwing in secondary and binding thunder strike in that RMB.. but when you can spam knives, i don't know if thunder strike is necessary

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 01 February 2018, 22:05:53

As I said in my journal I've been putting points pretty evenly since I don't know what gear I may find that suits this particular build.  I'll need 170 str for the Legendary SBCs (Stonebinder's Cuffs abbreviation CircularReason) and a whopping 425 dex.  But I've also dug out of the Vault some Veteran's Axes of Trickery which need over 500 str so may need to equip one or possibly two Hale or Plato rings depending on what I'm short of.  :-\

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 02 February 2018, 00:50:38

But you have that ability in rune that cuts strength requirements in half, right? Also, as far as calculating pierce damage, I was unclear on what was meant by the line in the AE patch notes that said:

"Pirecing damage now depends less heavily on Strength and more on Dexterity".

but isn't pierce damage a percent of physical damage, and physical damage is raised by strength? So in what way is the above statement true?

Bote - I didn't really get any good artifacts through farming the queens for SBC. Just got one set of those.

Also, can someone give me idea of what kind of effects are 'carried over' onto the throwing knife ability? I read somewhere that there are certain things that do carry over, but I don't know the specifics...

Thanks again for all your insight everyone. I am eager to learn.

PS: I don't have TQVault, and hence, nothing in it. You recommend me getting it? if so, where is the latest version? Second, does TQ Defiler still work? I tried GDdefiler to test it, but it won't let me edit most things. Not that I really want to, as I like playing it straight, but kinda a just in case kinda thing...

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 02 February 2018, 09:19:12

Not sure now much Runeword: Feather reduces str requirments to be honest.  I have it maxed, but may still need the jewellery to help out.

Throwing Knife will carry Envenom Weapon tree damages, not sure if Blade Honing and Anatomy also affect them.

If you like to collect gear (are a packrat in other words  ;)) then yes you definitely want to install TQVault.  The newest version is here and is Ragnarök compatible.

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=246.0

You can make as many out of game storage vaults as you want, naming them what you want so it's easy to find stuff.  It's easy to move stuff to/from the Vault to a toon's caravan storage area or their inventory bags or to the transfer area.  I must have about 100 different Vaults by now.  :o

And if you do like collecting all the specials from the game you might want to install TQCollector as well which keeps track of what you've found so far and what's still missing.

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=234.0

And we have a thread where you can boast of your new finds.

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=237.0

No, TQDefiler doesn't work with the AE version except for editing your toons.   GDDefiler will hopefully include the mods that TQDefiler has like freeze time of day, infinite potion stacking, etc, but no timeline from Soul on when that's likely to happen.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: botebote77 on 02 February 2018, 21:46:04

circular dude.. yeah i also don't use defiler except when making tests.. but on my characters that i play, nope

i have some news.. i actually made some tests for both str build and int build.. but just for this playstyle.. i haven't tried melee and trapper style

1) i like the int build more.. it's a glass cannon but there's a workaround

2) i like one hand throwing and shield more (with maxed runeword:absorb).. wet? that's because:

3) it's your cure to counter the glass part of glass cannon.. what about the damage? we'll get there at (5)

4) the dual throwing range bug is still present.. if you don't know it yet, it's the bug (or feature?) that your weapon can't reach your target if you just click on your target at range.. it's not present on a one hand throwing.. it's not that big of a deal but for this build, you want rune weapon to charge at the very first encounter of mobs because

5) magical charge and energy drain (except transmutation) seem to affect throwing knife (skill).. wet de? I've long suspected this but i was having doubts.. this is just eye test but i seem to deal better damage with knives with maxed magical charge.. and i also steal life and mana even though i don't have life and mana steal on my gear.. so i take back what i said in energy drain.. it's worth maxing because you can spread reduced OA and slow via knives.. you have to make sure though that you have a fast attacking main throwing weapon to charge up rune weapon quickly

https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc41c841c8rune6c4e.html?mastery=Trickster&master1=10&master2=6&sa=0&m1=32-10-6-6-16-1-0-0-1-1-0-0-10-1-12-0-8-0-6-4-6-0&m2=32-0-6-12-12-1-8-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-12-8-8-0-0-6-0

energy armor just enough so you can still cast it.. seal of fate for bosses.. the RR it provides is huge.. after it explodes, spray lots of knives of course with charged up rune weapon

again.. these are just eye tests.. but actually, i think this supports what vio previously said that transmutation also affects thunder strike, shield attacks, war wind, and other weapon attacks so long as the rune weapon aura is active.. remember runeword:feather also affects shields.. you can imagine the playstyle here.. it's a mash of left click, left click, right click, right click, left click, right click.. that's because you'd want to keep rune weapon aura active at the same time spread AoE damage.. %total damage from rune weapon also boosts the poison and bleed from knives

however, it's a double edged sword

1) you will almost never reach fully charged rune weapon because of the need to cast throwing knife (at least that's what happened on my tests)

2) rune lacks tricks that earth or storm provide.. you will have problems against monsters that deal reflection (you'll eventually get there).. i can think of some workarounds but it's more fun if you discover things yourself :)

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 03 February 2018, 01:44:01

1) i like the int build more.. it's a glass cannon but there's a workaround

Why do you like this more? More damage?

4) the dual throwing range bug is still present..

I noticed this in some tests, it's actually really annoying

2) rune lacks tricks that earth or storm provide.. you will have problems against monsters that deal reflection (you'll eventually get there).. i can think of some workarounds but it's more fun if you discover things yourself

What tricks? And please enlighten me on your workaround ideas. Careful planning before going to battle is better than dying and resurrecting in battle : )

So in all this, if I want to make a knife throwing skill / knife throwing weapon person, you would recommend going dex / int with transmutation?


"TQDefiler doesn't work with the AE version except for editing your toons. "

So it does work for editing toons? (not sure why they are called toons, but that's another story) - My son is playing with me, and wants to change his mastery. He's 8, so I figured I would let him, as he doesn't do the research I do before jumping in : )

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 03 February 2018, 14:37:01

I think so. If not I believe GDDefiler does.  Since I don't edit my toons can't say for sure for either of them.  Just make sure to buy back all the skill points at a Mystic first.

Toons as far as I know comes from cartoons - presumably when gaming started that's what many figures looked like- cartoon figures.  Which soon got shortened to toons.

Title: Re: Trickster, Transmutation, and stats
Post by: CircularReason on 03 February 2018, 15:35:33

Yeah, so I downloaded tqvault and defiler. Got both working. Changed my son's mastery since he wasn't feeling it. Besides lots of error messages when opening it (defiler) up, it still worked fine.