Titan Quest Fans Forum

Anniversary Edition - Mastery Mods => TQAE masteries => Runemaster AE => Topic started by: Medea Fleecestealer on 07 December 2017, 13:00:40

Title: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 07 December 2017, 13:00:40
Okay, this is going to be more of a journal than a build guide - since I'm figuring it out as I go along and frankly not sure it'll work either.  ;)  But taking inspiration from Fozzie's Bladeflinger Magician and botebote77's Flying Daggers variation for AE builds I thought I'd try a knife/weapon throwing Trickster out.  The combo of Runemaster/Rogue allows you to both have a throwing weapon on the LMB and Throwing Knife on the RMB so between them should be spammable, providing you can get the combo right. 

At the moment this is aiming to be a pure hyrbid with attribute points spread between strength, dexerity and intelligence pretty much in equal measure - because I want to wear some -% recharge intel gear to get Throwing Knife (and Runic Mines) recharge time down as well as use throwing weapons which require strength and also Trickery/of the Winds shields for added attack speed.  To help with both strength and intel requirements I'll be looking at equipping Hardy/Robust of Foresight necklaces at least.  And I will be twinking Tempest with stuff from my Vault - I just can't stand farming for specific stuff when it's probably sitting in my Vault gathering dust.

So started off with Rogue since I need to get Throwing Knife/Flurry of Knives going as quickly as possible.  Tempest is up to L11 and at the Halcyon Coast rebirth fountain.  Rogue is up to L19 in its mastery and I have one point in Throwing Knife, Envenom Weapons, Nightshade and Toxin Distillation.  Runemaster is only at L4 with a point in Rune Weapon/Magical Charge, Runeword: Feather and Runic Mines.  I have some SBC's equipped giving me +1 to all skills and will be heading up Rogue for Flurry over the next few levels, aiming hit it at L16.

Other Rogue skills I'll be looking to take are Blade Honing possibly (not sure exactly what throwing weapons the expansion provides yet to make that worthwhile - or even if that skill would apply to them), Anatomy, Mandrake and Disarm Traps (a point at least in this last one).

Runemaster skills: Energy Drain and Transmutation synergies of Rune Weapon, Freezing Mines synergy of Runic Mines, Runeword: Explode/Burn, Runeword: Absorb and Energy Armour.  Will also consider Sacred Rage/Frightning Power and maybe switch later to dual wield with Reckless Offense on second weapon slot for close in fights if needed.

Although Throwing Knife doesn't seem to benefit from Rune Weapon I figure if I can manage to spam both knives and throwing weapons I'll be spreading a good bit of poison/elemental damage around between the two.  :)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: botebote77 on 07 December 2017, 15:10:33
i have little suggestions.. throwing weapons have high dex req and lower str.. so ditch the strength or at least very few because runeword: feather affects shields.. and if you max transmutation (with +4), it will be 99% weapon damage converted to elemental so strength is useless (according to my tests).. plus rune of life gives +% str

another is farm for Eitr.. i think the flat elemental will be huge and if my theory is correct that it will convert the pierce of throwing knives to elemental, well undeads are no problem.. plus if you have flat elemental, then throwing knives will benefit from rune weapon

edit: except if you plan to get thunder strike too, then str would be necessary

edit 2: if you have flat elemental to knives, close combat wouldn't be necessary.. the good thing with a knifethrower is it's good as a ranged attacker but it's deadlier up close.. heck i killed legendary typhon in 5 seconds by getting close to him.. and that was in normal speed.. no time for him to cast thorns
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: CrocMagnum on 07 December 2017, 15:51:59
Nice going, MedeaFleecestealer! The blog seems promising. O0

I'm really interested is seeing how Rogue+Rune blend together, maybe this blog will bring out possible Synergies between the 2 Masteries.

Especially considering how Rune, a brand-new Mastery, is relatively undocumented right now.

Godspeed, friend.

Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 07 December 2017, 16:01:22
Runeword: Feather reduces str requirments for all weapons, nothing to do with shields.  You're confusing it with Defense's Armour Handling which does the same for shields and armour.  Not sure how the attributes are going to pan out at the moment since I haven't played a new toon through the expansion so no idea how much extra in the way of attributes I'm going to get yet.  Might go more int/dex later or str/dex depending on what I can find in my Vault that looks interesting and what new items I find that might work. 

Yeah, I'll definitely be looking for that Eitr relic/charm.  I have one in my Vault already and it looks good.

Well, I'm not planning to get into close combat, but in TQAE I don't tend to kite as I should - whereas I'm much more likely to do so in GD.  So I often end up in close combat when when I don't plan to!

It's a little irritating that the thrown weapons don't go as far as the Throwing Knife does when holding left-shift, but then again I throw a knife at the furthest away target which triggers the rest of the mob to run towards me and straight into the throwing weapon attacks.  :)

I tend to keep things simple with my builds - an LMB and RMB skill, maybe another one or two like Runic Mines on a hotkey and the rest passives or toggled skills.  So not sure I'll be trying Thunder Strike or Rune of Life with this build. 

Thanks CrocMagnum.  Very much feeling my way with this so thought it would be better as a journal type thread to give my experiences/impressions while slowly learning Runemaster, the latest changes to AE and the expansion of course.  I ran my old Guardian through Ragnarök Normal, but that was just to see what it was like and he's overlevelled for it so nothing was really difficult for him to deal with.  No other toons near reaching that part of the game yet.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: botebote77 on 07 December 2017, 21:35:43
Runeword: Feather reduces str requirments for all weapons, nothing to do with shields.

i was surprised as well but the feature is necessary imo especially for my melee/caster toon

https://imgur.com/a/YdfvU

i had other findings about rune mastery i posted here

http://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=145.0
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 07 December 2017, 21:50:58
Um, yeah, reading Feather's description it does say weapons and shields, but only mentions weapons in the stats below.  ???  So might be able to go more int/dex later on.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 December 2017, 12:49:49
So, managed to get a bit further today, I'm at the rebirth fountain before heading into the Minoan ruins.  So far it's playing pretty well, I've maxed out Rogue and nearly maxed out Flurry of Knives.  Once that's done I'll look at getting some more of the Rune skills I plan to take.  Put my latest attribute points into Intel/Dex, but I see Rune Weapons also ups the Intel you get - looks like it'll be 100% Intel when it's maxed. 
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: nargil66 on 21 December 2017, 12:20:55
Nice idea for a build, Medea. Definetly gonna try this. I tried making a dual-throwing Slayer yesterday, thinking that i'll reach insane throw speed with Weapon Training and Woodlore... but the speed for dual throw is capped to 141%. Now i'll make a Trickster instead :)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 21 December 2017, 12:38:12
I like throwing stuff around and Fozzie's Magician was quite good fun.  Hoping this will turn out to be the same.  I've been seeing more throwing weapons now I'm back to playing TQ more so am building up a bit of a collection that Tempest will hopefully be able to use later on.  :)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 28 December 2017, 10:35:53
Okay, got a bit further along with Tempest.  He's now into Act 2 and resting down in the Rhakotis Library.  Minotaur and Mega were a bit of a battle for him, but not really any problem.  Flurry of Knives is now maxed so working my way up the Rune mastery to get some more of those skills.

(https://i.imgur.com/T1zqXqi.jpg)
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Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 January 2018, 09:01:27
Can anyone confirm that Blade Honing works with thrown weapons as well?  I know it works with swords and I think axes, but haven't seen anything that says it works with the thrown weapons.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: botebote77 on 15 January 2018, 09:24:57
i can.. my nephew has trickster too though differently built.. works with discus too but i doubt it works with throwing hammers
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 January 2018, 09:59:56
Thanks botebote77.  I'm sticking with swords and axes for both thrown and normal weapons.  Not sure I'm going to use Blade Honing yet since I'm not sure how high I can get level-wise with the new cap.  Current build is only a 67 so there may be room to squeeze in Blade Honing and also possibly Anatomy.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 15 January 2018, 12:56:42
Quote from: MedeaFleecestealer
I want to wear some -% recharge intel gear to get Throwing Knife (and Runic Mines) recharge time down

Are you aware that putting points into the Throwing Knives base skill reduces its cooldown since the AE?
You do not need -%recharge items anymore to spam them if you have enough +skills instead.

And Rune Weapon does work with them in the sense that Magical Charge will apply its damage to any weapon attack you do while the aura is on.
Which includes the Knives, of course, thanks to their speical ability to carry weapon effects.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 January 2018, 13:09:44
No, wasn't aware of that Vio.  Hadn't noticed it when I maxed out the skill in TitanCalc.  Nice to know though since it should mean with maxed Throwing Knife they'll be spammable and "of Trickery" will also help AS for thrown weapons.  :)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 15 January 2018, 17:46:39
Yeah.. going by the "OMG Knives super nerfed!" cries that kept popping up, not many people did. :)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 January 2018, 20:07:06
Tempest is doing quite well, has reached Thebes having run around the Giza Plateau, Fayum and the Valley of the Kings.  Struggles most with those green magical blobs that spew poison in some of the caves.  He can kill them, just take a while longer.  Will have to dig out a Ritual necklace to equip to speed things up a bit I guess.

Btw, just read in another thread that Reckless Offense allows you to dual wield thrown weapons!  Even more spammable fun.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/c699Ryj.jpg)
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Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: botebote77 on 15 January 2018, 20:28:50
i thought i told you about the knives somewhere in this forum medea.. maybe my "possible OP char" nonsense thread? (btw, anyway to delete that thread?)

 i know i mentioned about the knives in my diary of a mage lover.. maybe a case of tldr?  :)

vio I've said over and over again that throwing knife has been boosted in AE not nerfed.. it also opened up more knifethrower builds beside sorcerer and magician.. some people choose to cry and whine first before trying things themselves

i also mentioned about throwing knives not needing CDR on my house of flying daggers guide.. (knifethrower as early as lvl 25)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 15 January 2018, 20:41:01
You may well have done botebote77 and I just forgot it.  Don't think I've read your mage lover thread yet so if it's in there that would explain it.

I'll see if I can delete that thread - no promises though.  I'm still learning how the site works and don't want to screw anything up.  :o
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Firebrand on 17 January 2018, 15:36:20
I know I'm pointing way ahead, but if anything, it might be motivation to continue.

I remember it being mentioned that Throwing Knives count as weapons, and get the Transmutation bonus as well as other things. In that case, I'd say you could keep an eye out for Falcon Cape: along with +2 to all Rune and +1 to all Rogue skills, it has an additional bonus of converting 50% of base weapon damage to elemental, which I assume affects the knives, so you won't necessarily have to charge the Rune Weapon up to get some conversion! I think it's a legendary and only starts to drop in Act V epic, so sadly there's a way to go for it yet.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 17 January 2018, 16:27:25
Hmm no.

Knives carry damage and effect bonuses that usually do not apply to a spell, but they are still a spell.
And even if the conversion would affect their physical base damage... they don't have any.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 17 January 2018, 17:29:04
But would still be good for dual wielding thrown weapons using Reckless Offense. Yes?
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 18 January 2018, 14:23:00
To clarify, I was talking about the Rogue's skill Throwing Knives (as in "Throwing Knives count as weapons").

All thrown weapons are obviously weapons and work just like any other.
Specifically like one-handed bows.

So yes, Reckless Offense is good. And Transmutation should apply even if you shoot several projectiles via Volley or Thunderstrike.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: gasconron on 18 January 2018, 17:31:37
@Vio: same Vio as in Violos???

Damn nice to see you alive and kicking...  ;D
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: botebote77 on 18 January 2018, 17:43:11
And Transmutation should apply even if you shoot several projectiles via Volley or Thunderstrike.
i like to test this when i get more time as well as shield charge and pulverize.. volley no doubt it should.. but if this is true, transmutation should also affect war wind hmmm
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 18 January 2018, 20:28:21
Yes - any attack that uses the weapon.

And yes that's me @gasconron. Just dropped the Greek -los because it sounded... unnecessarily violent. :D
(Actually only added that in a fancy when first registering for tq.net, not expecting to stay for a decade haha)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 18 January 2018, 20:53:50
 :o Hope that doesn't mean you'll be leaving us soon then.
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Vio on 18 January 2018, 21:07:49
No worries, I'll be staying with Titan Quest for a while.  O0
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 01 February 2018, 12:54:59
Time for another update.  :) Tempest is well into Act 3 now and resting at Chang'an.  He's had a few close calls and needed some health potions mainly because he doesn't have any pierce resistance at the moment.  I've managed to reach Reckless Offense so he's now dual wielding both throwing in the first weapons slot and ordinary weapons in the second.  Throwing Knife is almost maxed so can throw them out pretty quickly now.  Bandari was a bit of a pain because of his slowing spells (no resistance to that yet either), but Barmanu, Yeti and Giant Peng were pretty easy, just needed the usual patience and kiting for Barmanu.

At the moment I'm concentrating attribute points on str/dex since I'm still climbing the Rune mastery so am getting some intel from that.  Once I've done that I may go to intel/dex, but will just have to see how the str side does equipment-wise.  Since I don't need -%recharge gear for knive spamming he'll be wearing all melee gear now instead of a mix with caster items.

(https://i.imgur.com/4giJfxt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4DF2cRi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j9zy0Ah.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WNendBn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kMaQPZo.jpg)
Title: Re: Tempest Tricks' Trickster journal
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 11 February 2018, 19:31:40
Well, so so day today.  Tempest is at Medea's Grove, but he's had a few deaths since he ventured into the Secret Passage.  Frazier killed him once and Toxeus 3 times so he has 5 deaths now.  That wasn't the annoying part though.  It was those 3 extra foes that are in the AE version on the righthand side in a cell area with no door.  I pity any pure melee toons trying to reach them because of that.  I managed one because he came up to the bars and I was able to fight him through them, but the other two didn't come within reach.  I respec'd out of Throwing Knives and tried Traps - nope, didn't work.  Respec'd again and put points into Poison Bomb and also Seal of Fate.  Bomb didn't work either, but Seal of Fate had some success.  Then suddenly I got switched with the Shaman inside and had to fight the remaining guy.  No problem there, but then had to reach the Shaman who was now outside the cell and me in.  Luckily he was in range of Seal of Fate and with several castings I managed to bring him down.

The other problem - and I don't if it's a bug or deliberate on the devs' part - you can throw down a portal in the Secret Passage and get out, but you can't portal back - it doesn't show up on the portal map when you're in there.  So what with the deaths and being stuck in the cell I spent a lot of time portaling out and running all the way back to the SP again.  >:(

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