Author Topic: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion  (Read 58977 times)

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Offline 1cec0ld

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #15 on: 15 May 2019, 23:58:03 »
I can't provide a source because he didn't authorize me to quote him. You're speaking with me  ;D

The following is all my opinion, not his:

Personally, I like the feel of Psionic Beam. Ternion always felt clunky and weak, particularly while investing points so that it can finally become a positive damage source. If I want to attack one enemy, I don't want to aggro the enemies at a 20 degree angle off of it at the same time.
That, plus the ability to more quickly re-apply Psionic Touch and Psionic Burn, as well as the smooth animation made it one of my favorite skills to Beta Test.

Throwing knives are a longer range way to apply weapon effects, yes. And a completely different playstyle. If you want to turn your melee assassin into a knife thrower, you are free to do so. That doesn't justify removing or changing Blade Barrier.

People already play Storm with melee characters. Giving those players another option to use a skill is already a cool thing to do. Your personal standards on what effort is required to make something "cool" might need reevaluating.

I do agree on Meteor. Consistency makes a skill more attractive than sheer dumb luck. I hope this does change eventually.

"Considering how Hunting does not need to crit consistently"
Why not? If a Hunting player picks a second mastery that wants to crit, why stop them? Also, who said only Hunters benefit from Call of the Hunt? Again, look at other playstyles, not just the metagame, best DPS builds. They want to encourage diversification, not making OP things more OP.

Shortcomings of spear builds, off the top of my head:
Single target unless a second mastery is forced.
Two passive buffs, Wood Lore and Volley, neither affect multiple targets.
One spear specific skill, Take Down (with a crappy augment), unless a second mastery is forced.
Allowing a Pure Hunter to hit more enemies with a spear sounds like a great way to encourage that new playstyle.

Poison Mayhem, again, I agree that consistency would be helpful, and I hope it changes.

Slam, I didn't try it, I'm not a Warfare player normally, I'm going to stay out of this one.
Same with Rune class. I don't like the Mastery, I'm not a good judge of how to improve it.

Everything you didn't respond to: I take it that you're ok with those skills then? You like that Earthbind is basically a copy of Sylvan Protection? Phalanx and Perfect Block make sense now? Your negatives are nice to hear, but at least give the developers credit when your mind is changed, rather than a wall of "this is why you're wrong on these specific points"
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 00:03:47 by 1cec0ld »

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #16 on: 16 May 2019, 01:05:24 »
Throwing knives are a longer range way to apply weapon effects, yes. And a completely different playstyle. If you want to turn your melee assassin into a knife thrower, you are free to do so. That doesn't justify removing or changing Blade Barrier.
Giving throwing knives to a melee build for damage works fine. You get a ranged spell, and mandrake at range. Blade barrier works at the same range as your melee weapon, so its weird and redundant when you swing your weapon at the same mobs. Weapons tend to be stronger than spells too. So it goes like that: you turn on blade barrier, see mobs starting to take damage while you kill them immediately with attacks.

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People already play Storm with melee characters. Giving those players another option to use a skill is already a cool thing to do. Your personal standards on what effort is required to make something "cool" might need reevaluating.
Uh, lol, what.

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I do agree on Meteor. Consistency makes a skill more attractive than sheer dumb luck. I hope this does change eventually.
If meteor has some consistency in where it falls, it could be built as a physical caster with reduced recharge gear. A different playstyle than physical melee. It would have to sacrifice some defense and probably also attack speed for recharge, which sounds like a thoughtful decision not without drawbacks.

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"Considering how Hunting does not need to crit consistently"
Why not? If a Hunting player picks a second mastery that wants to crit, why stop them? Also, who said only Hunters benefit from Call of the Hunt?
Hunting can already crit consistently, its common way to build a character which would normally utilize CotH, and another skill that was already there, is enough.

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Again, look at other playstyles, not just the metagame, best DPS builds. They want to encourage diversification, not making OP things more OP.
Yes, sure, thats exactly what I'm doing.

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Allowing a Pure Hunter to hit more enemies with a spear sounds like a great way to encourage that new playstyle.
New skill does not have much damage to be anything attractive and chance of fear is counterproductive for melee.

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Everything you didn't respond to: I take it that you're ok with those skills then?
I commented on them in the first post of this thread and later, that should be enough. But if it isn't I may try to elaborate.

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Offline icefreeze

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #17 on: 16 May 2019, 06:34:41 »
- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet. Its attack delay the same like you using Ring of Flame skill, about 2 tick/s. It can be trigger some skill on items like TK. Using Blade Barrier with some items like Mjolnir throw hammer can be a very good CC skill ( and dealing more dmg) => its good at some point.
- Spear Dance: dmg of this skill its quite good at high lvl, it like Warwind of Hunting. I tested its dmg compare to normal hit, so don't talk i just "feeling".
- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
- Poison Mayhem: its should be change to get all PGB attack the same target than like present( each PGB go ech place, only one go to the place that you want, sometime 2).

Any skill who can attack multiple enemies can be using to trigger any grant skill activated on attack, so its has their something good about them.
More skill, more builds. Its good, but need improve.

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #18 on: 16 May 2019, 07:02:32 »
can i bitch a little? one more mini rant?  ;D

I'm also interested in that higher source.. was it a dev? a beta tester?

i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution.. the solution: it's already done before by hybrid players.. pair it with a melee mastery.. experienced hybrid players already know that.. they don't need something like this.. it's an insult

ok.. diversity.. well yeah why don't you add a caster spell on warfare and defense then? yeah you won't because melee players know it's not the solution.. it's a spit on the face of caster players.. and for this reason, the other wisp buff skill is also out of place.. everything in storm screams casters.. then you add a melee skill and a petmaster skill.. it's not the solution

edit: i am a caster player who loves storm.. and the ultimate skill i get is.. dot dot dot.. a melee skill and a petmaster skill
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 07:56:31 by botebote77 »
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #19 on: 16 May 2019, 09:24:30 »
Some change in patch v2.4:
- Meteor Rain deal less Burn DMG, more Physical DMG, and have radius as skill infor (it doesn't deal DMG in range like skill infor before) => easier to hit target, more focus for Str build.
- Fire Nova get boost both Fire and Burn DMG ( about 1.5x).

* And about Psionic Beam: with high lvl, every staves attack with Psionic Touch can can pass through target, so it some how make the Staves attack get more power on it own way.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 10:02:55 by icefreeze »

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #20 on: 16 May 2019, 10:37:13 »
Imo some of the new skills are appropriately placed at the top tier; such as Meteor (albeit they do need further tweaking/balance of damage to reflect this top tier status)

As for the others, I think that yes they would benefit from being placed among the lower tiers and a system similar to Grim Dawns 'Transmuter' skills would be much more effective - taking existing skills and changing up their flavour/playstyle.

@1cec0ld Pretty much agree with your thoughts  ;D
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #21 on: 16 May 2019, 11:00:21 »
i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution..
Thanks for formulating this, its about what I was trying to tell. Hybrids go against the normal TQ character building schemes and need a lot to compensate for that. For damage, rune weapon stacks an absurd intelligence on player while converting all physical damage to elemental and adding more flat elemental. If its defense, the problem is in the storm mastery tooltip. Its good for attack, bad for defense. It only has damage reduction in squall and some unreliable crowd control. If you want to help strom in melee with defense, it would again require stacking multiple layers of defense to get anywhere near actual melee masteries.

Can a single skill like lightning dash do all of that? Hardly, unless its some completely overpowered skill, which it isn't.

- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet.
I'd argue its not for melee at all. Throwing weapons perhaps, though why wouldn't you use throwing knives on them too?

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- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
Flush out can also do that by debuffing mobs your pets attack.

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Offline icefreeze

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #22 on: 16 May 2019, 11:48:00 »
i fully understand the intent on adding a melee skill on storm.. yeah diversity.. but adding an out of place skill at the top of the tree is not the solution..
Thanks for formulating this, its about what I was trying to tell. Hybrids go against the normal TQ character building schemes and need a lot to compensate for that. For damage, rune weapon stacks an absurd intelligence on player while converting all physical damage to elemental and adding more flat elemental. If its defense, the problem is in the storm mastery tooltip. Its good for attack, bad for defense. It only has damage reduction in squall and some unreliable crowd control. If you want to help strom in melee with defense, it would again require stacking multiple layers of defense to get anywhere near actual melee masteries.

Can a single skill like lightning dash do all of that? Hardly, unless its some completely overpowered skill, which it isn't.

- Blade Barrier is like the fusion of Trap + Throwing Knives, so you have a skill that can scale by character but attack separately like a pet.
I'd argue its not for melee at all. Throwing weapons perhaps, though why wouldn't you use throwing knives on them too?

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- Finese: this skill can buff OA for allies in range so it very good to buff OA for melee pets ( which can't be boost OA for them before) or co-op friend.
Flush out can also do that by debuffing mobs your pets attack.
- Just cast Blade Barrier and you can attack by yourselves, so you and BB attack together, it surely better than you just attack alone.
- More OA always good, especially when facing enemies that have high DA or dmg absorption, more critical hit, more good.

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #23 on: 16 May 2019, 12:30:56 »
- Just cast Blade Barrier and you can attack by yourselves, so you and BB attack together, it surely better than you just attack alone.
For me it results in BB doing approx 1/10 of what hero does with weapon in the same time. Redundancy.

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More OA always good, especially when facing enemies that have high DA or dmg absorption, more critical hit, more good.
Not in this game and not even in GD. Crit multiplier gains from OA have ceiling. I think Anniversary edition meddled with OA/DA formula, but for max crit multiplier (x1.5) attackers OA should exceed defenders DA by 500 https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=43.0

I think Hydra and some other mobs had 900 DA, but new acts added mobs with slightly higher. Modders can figure how much is that exactly, my guess is its around 1000 DA. So you need 1500 OA to get max multiplier, anything above that is wasted. Unless you reduce mobs DA by half with flush out. That would be 500 DA, and require just 1000 OA to get max multiplier.

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #24 on: 16 May 2019, 13:46:09 »
- Formula for piercing dmg are 2 formula. For piercing dmg on weapon
= (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)
You should update.
- If 1000OA is must to get maximum effect, so Pet don't have that OA, and with Finese buff, it can reach to maximum effect to hit and crit.

You can test the effect of Finese on Wolf. You will be surely surprise.
Just be sure that you test on monster, don't test on dummies.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 14:13:36 by icefreeze »

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #25 on: 16 May 2019, 19:07:51 »
- Formula for piercing dmg are 2 formula. For piercing dmg on weapon
= (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)
You should update.
Um, we were talking about OA/DA in relation to crit.


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You can test the effect of Finese on Wolf. You will be surely surprise.
Just be sure that you test on monster, don't test on dummies.
Its hard to surprise me but I don't have any rangers or brigands and cannot test it, so I guess I can trust you on your word? That would make the skill summoner related. I mean summoner skill in hunting. After melee storm and summoner defense I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #26 on: 16 May 2019, 21:41:40 »
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 21:56:37 by botebote77 »
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #27 on: 17 May 2019, 00:51:45 »
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them

Storm already has a lot of caster skills, what do you think is lacking ?
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #28 on: 17 May 2019, 01:19:57 »
I shouldn't voice it I guess, but I just want to ask devs to make a cold or lightning damage spell for warfare then. So that caster thanes could use it. That would be completely fair.
it's no different from lightning dash from storm.. but warfare melee players would say it's useless

well how about storm caster players? these devs are totally one-sided it's disgusting

these devs might be thinking: since there are few caster players anyway, it's OK to eliminate them

Storm already has a lot of caster skills, what do you think is lacking ?
do you really think lightning dash is a good top tier skill for storm?

the suggested CC by mammoth would've been better

would you like a top tier caster spell for warfare or defense?
« Last Edit: 17 May 2019, 01:22:17 by botebote77 »
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #29 on: 17 May 2019, 01:45:10 »
a more serious answer, @soa

a frost nova that slows enemies for a few seconds and has a small chance to freeze would be really nice.. i wouldn't even care if the damage is weak or even zero

edit: or a passive flat energy regen or reduced energy cost.. even something as simple as this would make a big difference
« Last Edit: 17 May 2019, 02:15:38 by botebote77 »
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