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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 12:08:45

Title: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 12:08:45
(https://img00.deviantart.net/2c15/i/2015/017/1/f/akame_ga_kill_esdese_esdeath_by_hazzy5-d8e9xlk.jpg)

As I am currently stuck progressing my characters, waiting for my little brother to catch up for co-op, I was toying with the idea of starting a caster character (I currently only have melee/pet characters and an elemental archer). This brought me to remember my pre-AE playthroughs, the characters of which I've since deleted. One of them was a sharder,.. and man, that character was OP. So, another sharder seemed fun, but other than that I had no idea about how that character's build would look. My previous one was a Sage, but my elemental archer is allready a Sage, elemental archer being by far the most fun way to play a Sage. Now, what would be an ideal sharder?.. I know:

(https://pa1.narvii.com/5963/719ef1384b4c3d904612c411f6f8a0b1b4146e9a_hq.gif)

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/akamegakill/images/a/a7/Esdeath_accepting_her_defeat.png)

This immediately causes a problem though: Esdese is, apart from an ice manipulator, also quite an accomplished melee fighter. Giving her a physical damage melee weapon would also synergize extremely well with Freezing Blasts -100% physical resistance debuff on enemies. Yet, true hybrids simply don't work in TQ. Thus, the most obvious class choices such as a Thane or a Sorcerer can be forgotten about. We simply can't invest the stat- and skillpoints to make dual-wielding or piercing damage worthwile. Also, a Paladin isn't really an option, because a buff shield carrying character is the last thing we want.

The easiest would be to just give up the melee aspect, and go for an Oracle (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc6eba6eba6eba.html?mastery=Oracle&master1=2&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-6-0-0-8-1-1-0-0-16-1-0-8-0-1-0-1-1-1-1-16-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0). ask Leone; Deathchill aura seems just so befitting, and there'd even be points to spare for Enslave Spirit or Dark Convenant with Unearthly Power, muahahahaha,..

A Thunderer (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc464c464crunee80e.html?mastery=Thunderer&master1=10&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-10-6-0-16-10-0-10-6-0-0-0-10-0-0-12-0-8-6-0-0-0-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0-0) appears to provide a very interesting alternative though. Rune Weapon allows us to get closer to a true hybrid character than any other skill ingame, and Runeword: Feather allows us to equip weapons we otherwise would have had the statpoints to invest in for. It's a bit deceitfull though, since we'd still not be doing much actual physical damage, and that taken into consideration Freezing Blast's debuff would remain only marginally effective, unless ofcourse we're playing co-op (yeah, someone else can start a thread about a Tatsumi build then), in which case the whole physical requirement argument becomes mute and we could pick pretty much any secondary, which would most likely end up being Spirit. Anyway, Sacred Rage with Frightining Power sound at least as good as Deathchill Aura.

Finally, we might actually have to rethink Thane (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc7f0a7f0a7f0a.html?mastery=Thane&master1=8&master2=3&sa=30&m1=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0-0&m2=32-6-12-8-6-8-6-0-6-12-0-0-6-6-12-0-0-0-6-6-16-0). Take some points out of Battle Rage, Onslaught, and some of the dual wielding procs, and skillpoint-wise it'd be doable. That way we're sure we won't be temped to equip a shield (any other melee character will, because the off-hand remains free otherwise). Statpoint-wise I just can't figure this one out though. Full Int. is the way to go, and would work for damage, but we wouldn't be able to equip any half decent weapons.

What do you guys think?  Oracle (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc6eba6eba6eba.html?mastery=Oracle&master1=2&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-6-0-0-8-1-1-0-0-16-1-0-8-0-1-0-1-1-1-1-16-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0), Thunderer (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc464c464crunee80e.html?mastery=Thunderer&master1=10&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-10-6-0-16-10-0-10-6-0-0-0-10-0-0-12-0-8-6-0-0-0-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0-0), Thane (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc7f0a7f0a7f0a.html?mastery=Thane&master1=8&master2=3&sa=30&m1=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0-0&m2=32-6-12-8-6-8-6-0-6-12-0-0-6-6-12-0-0-0-6-6-16-0), or something else alltogether?
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 24 January 2018, 12:59:40

Yet, true hybrids simply don't work in TQ.

careful there.. some of us have hybrids.. but for this i think gasconron would be a better help
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 13:18:46

Yet, true hybrids simply don't work in TQ.

careful there.. some of us have hybrids.. but for this i think gasconron would be a better help

Ya, I have or have had hybrids too. What I mean with true hybrid that do both casted elemental damage and melee physical damage in more or less equal portions  :P
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 24 January 2018, 13:32:55
in the meantime, here is what i like to do for hybrids.. either i go str/dex first or int/dex first so i have access to high level items early.. i also go for items that give %stats.. that is why i like symbol of the polymath.. also don't ignore items that give reduced requirements like rhesus whitewashed armor.. hybrids shine late game when you have lots of item choices and %total damage items.. wide range of item choices is huge.. i mean how else can you wear alexander's cuirass and archmage's clasp for example
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 15:42:24
Yes, I agree, but I think things are getting a bit mixed up here.

A sharder should not be a hybrid. Basically we're going for a warrior look, by holding one or two swords, and maybe occasionally smashing some ice, but essentially it's a unadulterated caster.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Malgardian on 24 January 2018, 16:14:01
Hybrids are very much possible if you go for elemental damage instead of physical with the new rune mastery. I don't know how "in character" that would be in your case, however. If your melee damage has to be physical you really will have to create a jack of all trades (i.e. invest in both int and str instead of one over the other) which overall weakens your character.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 24 January 2018, 20:26:19
Yes, I agree, but I think things are getting a bit mixed up here.

A sharder should not be a hybrid. Basically we're going for a warrior look, by holding one or two swords, and maybe occasionally smashing some ice, but essentially it's a unadulterated caster.
if you're willing to farm, i wrotr a theoretical build before

https://www.reddit.com/r/TitanQuestAE/comments/7jf4r7/ragnarok_version_of_the_dual_wield_icesharder/

I'm too sleepy to think where to farm it atm
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 22:00:23
Hybrids are very much possible if you go for elemental damage instead of physical.

Yes, I have a "hybrid" bow Sage that way, but it's not a true hybrid.

I think you're right in that an elemental damage Rune build is the way to go, but unfortunately I said it won't take advantage of Freezing Blast -100% physical debuff. However, building a sharder that does capitalize on that is just not feasible. It would indeed end up as a weakened Jack of All Trades character.

Yes, I agree, but I think things are getting a bit mixed up here.

A sharder should not be a hybrid. Basically we're going for a warrior look, by holding one or two swords, and maybe occasionally smashing some ice, but essentially it's a unadulterated caster.
if you're willing to farm, i wrotr a theoretical build before

https://www.reddit.com/r/TitanQuestAE/comments/7jf4r7/ragnarok_version_of_the_dual_wield_icesharder/

I'm too sleepy to think where to farm it atm

That's cool, I had not heard of that build yet. Two times Persephone's Caress (https://www.tq-db.net/equipment/persephones-caress) won't work though "in character".

What I'd like to know about is that Pre-Ragnarok Thane Sharder mentioned, as I'm not familiar with that build either.

Biggest surprise though, was that Rune by itself enables dual-wielding. I did NOT know that. Is it Reckless Offense that enables it? That pretty much settles Thunderer (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc464c464crunee80e.html?mastery=Thunderer&master1=10&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-10-6-0-16-10-0-10-6-0-0-0-10-0-0-12-0-8-6-0-0-0-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-0-8-1-12-0-8-0-0) as the class of choice for this theme.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 24 January 2018, 22:19:08
if you think that's cool i will port it here as well :) later when i get my head straight.. dual wield from warfare and reckless offense enables you to equip 2 weapons.. for a thunderer though since it's heavy on int already using a shield could be fine i think.. sacrificing some dps for added protection
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 24 January 2018, 22:24:40
for a thunderer though since it's heavy on int already using a shield could be fine i think.. sacrificing some dps for added protection

From an efficiency point of view, yes, but it'd look stupid. Plus, it doesn't need protection, if you fail, it means you were weak  ;D

Port in due time will be much appreciated.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 26 January 2018, 11:23:47
So, I've been thinking about weapons, and these are the swords that seem, at least on paper, to work well:

(https://i.imgur.com/M8u7eJm.png)

In fact, the whole Crystalline Array set (https://www.tq-db.net/set/crystalline-array) seems great (even though Rimescythe by itself is not thát great), which would just leave one more weapon or shield slot to fill, plus jewelry. It buffs precisely the skills we're not using, it add skills from Storm mastery we don't have the point for to commit to in ourselves, it reduces requirements, it regenerates energy, and it provides some much needed defense, not just as armour, but also by reflecting damage, and debuffing enemies.

For our second weapons slot, I'd go for:

(https://i.imgur.com/A2ReDD8.png)

Squall is another skill we otherwise can't really commit to, and the +44 Str. is really nice.

Then, there are these tertiary options:

(https://i.imgur.com/tDBjm6r.png)(https://i.imgur.com/AfM6oe5.png)(https://i.imgur.com/mQbaPwy.png)

They aren't really good, but they have no stat requirements, other than level. Out of these the Dagger of Bashona is by far the most interesting, because of the recharge and +100% Total Damage. Since most of our damage will be coming from elemental additions, the latter might actually matter much more than the Bashona's rather mediocre base damage.

Finally, I completely forgot about throwing weapons. Personally, I have absolutely zero experience with them, so I just don't know, but maybe they'd work, but since a lot of them are short blades, they would definitely work character wise.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 26 January 2018, 13:00:41
but flat cold don't affect ice shards or any spells.. for an icesharder you'd be better off with green weapons with of rime suffix (%cold and frostburn).. enhance them with blade of thanatos maybe (%total damage)
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 26 January 2018, 14:52:52
but flat cold don't affect ice shards or any spells.. for an icesharder you'd be better off with green weapons with of rime suffix (%cold and frostburn).. enhance them with blade of thanatos maybe (%total damage)

Hmmm,.. I was thinking about Pagos, more because of the other stats and Str. bonus, and Rimescythe because of the overall set bonusses.

You're right though that shard damage will be lower, though this should be slightly offset by high elemental melee potential.
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 30 May 2018, 16:17:49
UPDATE:

Started on this build. Going for these skills at level 75 (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalc464c464crunee80e.html?mastery=Thunderer&master1=10&master2=8&sa=30&m1=32-10-6-0-16-10-0-0-6-0-0-0-10-0-12-12-0-0-6-0-6-0-0-0-0-0&m2=32-12-10-0-0-8-0-8-0-8-0-0-0-12-1-8-1-12-0-8-8-0-0-0-0).

Putting 38 attribute points in Str., 37 in Dex., and the rest in Int. Breakdown below:

Quote
Strength
Base:         50
Rune:         32
Storm:         0
Quests:         42
-----------------------------
Base:         124
Added 38:      152
Total:         276
Required:      (473 - 42% req.= ) 275

Dexterity
Base:         50
Rune:         48
Storm:         32
Quests:         18
-----------------------------
Base:         148
Added 37:      148
Total:         296
Required:      295

Intelligence
Base:         50
Rune:         64
Storm:         96
Quests:         18
-----------------------------
Base:         228
Level 75:      364
Total:         592
Required:      n.a.

The reason for this distribution is that, with Runeword: Feather, it allows you to equip both of Persephone's Caress and Pagos, without need for -%req. gear. That doesn't mean either of these two weapons are required for this build, but together they seem to provide a solid point of aim for attribute point distribution. As @botebote77 allready pointed out, you could do with less Str. and Dex., if you avoid using swords, and get +skills for Runeword: Feather.

Quote
(https://picoolio.net/images/2018/05/28/Persephoneseaeb3bc5e152c4c6.png) (https://www.tq-db.net/equipment/persephones-caress)
Quote
(https://i.imgur.com/A2ReDD8.png) (https://www.tq-db.net/equipment/pagos)
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: botebote77 on 30 May 2018, 20:23:34
just to be clear, i had no influence on the skills he decided or will decide to take  ;D except that less str is needed if you get +4 to all skills.. one look at my storm guide (https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=456.0) and one would know it completely goes against what i said about storm skills.. Dude, that build is too glass cannony.. it was widely said in the manga that esdese does not give an opening while fighting offensively.. it was evident in the final battle the way they planned how to beat esdeath.. yeah i decided to read it anyway
in the manga, esdese makes an ice shield which is really an ice wall to block incoming attacks.. iirc she used it against tatsumi and again against akame.. menhir wall is the closest thing although it doesn't look like ice.. and wave was really cool in the kurome vs akame fight i bet kurome's panties fell off  ;D

edit:
found it

against Tatsumi
(https://titanquestfans.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbnYbRjI.jpg&hash=1900daca8beaf34ad71833ddb187ae4de98f4037)

against akame
(https://titanquestfans.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHMP9mFM.jpg&hash=1f6a3e0fa5c99d39e1c21bd2760fe24f1eecab35)

btw this is a good way of attacking with her ice shards, how akame only got hit on the leg i don't know
(https://titanquestfans.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCpxQVT2.jpg&hash=5fc588e0397f7a04480b0e99cc387f0afbc9b233)
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 30 May 2018, 23:12:12
just to be clear, i had no influence on the skills he decided or will decide to take  ;D except that less str is needed if you get +4 to all skills.. one look at my storm guide (https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=456.0) and one would know it completely goes against what i said about storm skills.. Dude, that build is too glass cannony..

Et tu, Bote?  :'(

Lol, I know I can be a stubborn bastard. I really don't know about the glassiness though. With maxed Reflection, maxed Sacred Rage, maxed  Frightening Power, maxed Freezing Blast, maxed Seal of Fate, maxed Aftershock, and maxed Storm Surge, I don't see how you could make it any less glassy. That's a lot of CC. Yeah, you could go for Squall again of course (boooooring!), and Energy Armor, but it seems like too much. Maybe sharder Thunderers are a bit glassy by definition,.. and classy  O0
Title: Re: [AE 1.51 theory] Esdese-sama's Sharder Build
Post by: Laionidas on 01 June 2018, 13:46:53
So I started with maxing out Transmutation, to give me a bit of a weapon damage buff early game, but I now feel this was a mistake.

Having brought Str. and Dex. up to the desired numbers first, Int. is still relatively low, so elemental conversion doesn't do much for the total damage output, while late game, weapon damage is going to pale in comparison to casted damage anyway.

It might be better to leave Transmutation at zero points, which might actually help against some bosses: if they're not immune to Freezing Blast, the -100% physical resist means they at least take some damage from weapon attacks. Those six points could go towards maxing Rune of Life for a vitality and bleeding resist buff.
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