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Titan Quest - Anniversary Edition => Gameplay => Guides AE => Topic started by: Firebrand on 06 May 2018, 14:36:53

Title: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 06 May 2018, 14:36:53
Introduction

So you want to burn things. That's good. Commendable. I don't have a whole lot of experience writing guides, but inspired by @CrocMagnum and his write-up for Rune, I thought I'd try my hand at one. After all, while I haven't gotten far with all of them yet, I've tried the majority of Earth's combinations (Stonespeaker and Conjurer in legendary, Avenger in epic, Summoner and Juggernaut in normal, though I honestly don't have immediate plans to continue with the latter). An Elementalist was my first character ever in Titan Quest (way before Anniversary Edition), and I'm planning to play through the game with one again now that I know better. Any feedback is welcome!

Overview

So what do we know about Earth? Why is it good? Why would we want to play it?

Personally, when I create a character, or plan it, I consider both masteries. Usually (but not always), there's a primary mastery, which roughly determines the way the character's supposed to be played, the way it should achieve its goal, and a secondary, supporting mastery, which usually augments the primary mastery's skills using synergies, provides additional survivability or efficiency. Sometimes there's no distinct hierarchy, but most of the time one of the masteries is more important than the other, at least the way I'm developing my characters.

As far as my opinion's concerned, Earth makes a fantastic primary mastery for casters, and a decent and interesting secondary mastery for fighters. Without further ado, let's look at some generic things.

The mastery itself, when maxed, provides +90 Intellect, +48 Dexterity, +720 Health and +192 Energy. Some of these values are unusual; the Intellect is roughly average as caster masteries go, while Dexterity is nothing special, either. The health bonus is by far better, however, than anything offered by any other caster mastery, but in exchange the energy is the lowest among them. Earth itself also doesn't offer anything to reduce your energy consumption (other than Barrage, which only works for Flame Surge specifically), it is recommended to get some through your supporting mastery or items, if you're planning to go heavy on casting.

Anniversary Edition has affected Earth quite a bit. Many Earth skills deal both physical and fire damage. The former is now boosted by Strength, while the latter has always been increased by Intellect. This offers you a choice; while I've found that the skills generally scale better with Intellect, if you're planning to choose Earth as a secondary mastery for your melee character, you'll find that your increased Strength will still benefit most of your skills, which opens up nice avenues for a hybrid character.

Another remarkable change is damage-over-time. Since now these are increased by their respective attributes, burn damage by Intellect, specifically, with the arrival of Anniversary Edition, Earth has ascended into one of the best damage-over-time masteries, sharing this position with the poison-bleed-focused Rogue and the electrifying Dream. Unlike poison and bleed, burn damage devastates the undead, and you'll find that the combination of physical and fire damage is usually quite complementary in itself, as few enemies are resistant enough to both.

On the other hand, Earth remains good at which it has always excelled: instant damage and destroying crowds. Pyromancers are adept at dealing high amount of instanteous and prolonged damage, and are able to do so to large amounts of monsters at the same time. This gives us one of the best masteries when it comes to dealing with hordes and swarms (which is most of the time in the game), although it might be a bit more lacking against bosses. This is also something to keep in mind when picking your secondary mastery.

Earth also offers pretty good survivability overall, as far as caster classes go. Heat Shield provides a fixed 15% physical resistance, and Stone Form is one of the best panic buttons in the game. The Core Dweller is an incredibly resilient summon who also has the innate ability to redirect attackers to itself. Its attack strength is a little bit lacking, but killing stuff is what the Pyromancer is there for, anyway.

Skills

Earth Enchantment, Brimstone, Stone Skin

Earth Enchantment: If you picked Earth, you want to burn things. This helps you burn things. The flat fire damage bonus is really heavy early on but its effect diminishes later as it doesn't increase with additional skill points. It provides an increasing percentile increase to both fire and burn damage, however, and I personally believe it is a no-brainer skill to max, even reasonably early, even if you don't care much for the increasing radius.

Brimstone: Increased physical damage is good, as two of Earth's skills deal physical damage, though the amount is not much. If you're a caster, I'd personally maybe just put one point into this (with one notable exception), but if you rely on weapon attacks a lot (or like to throw knives), the huge amount of flat burn damage is going to massively increase your DPS if you have decent Intellect and some bonus to burn damage. In this case, I'd max this skill as well.

Stone Skin: Personally I find this underwhelming. Flat armor bonus isn't really worth the skill points in my opinion, especially later on, and the bonus to fire resistance is negligible (and if you're focused on Earth and fire damage, your items should give you ample fire resistance anyway). I usually put one point into this, but I can also easily imagine that it's just as good if you skip.

Flame Surge, Barrage, Flame Arch

I'm going to discuss the three skills in one. Long story short, I see this skill as a replacement for your weapon attack (for casters). However, it is quite unimpressive as far as those go, mostly due to the limited range. Ternion Attack and Ice Shard both outdo it by far in my opinion, but if your supporting mastery offers nothing of the sort (Nature has none, and Dream has Psionic Touch, which might not cut it, either), it's a decent option. As such, I'd either max all three skills with a character who relies on it, or ignore it entirely with everyone else.

With some recharge reduction from items, you can reduce its recharge to zero, which makes it actually pretty amazing at dispatching melee attackers as far as your casting speed is good, although it leaves you vulnerable to archers, other casters, and possibly enemies with thrown weapons (luckily, you have other skills to deal with them).

Flame Surge might be of interest to melee characters taking Earth for reducing the target's defensive ability quite nicely, allowing for harder-hitting criticals.

Volcanic Orb, Conflagration, Fragmentation

I'm going to begin with this: This is an amazing set of skills, and I believe that all three are worth maxing out, pretty much no matter what you do. The mix of physical and fire damage means it's going to scale, no matter whether you invest more heavily into Strength or Intellect. Even Volcanic Orb alone affects a respectable area, which Conflagration increases further (with the addition of some sweet, lethal burn damage) and with Fragmentation, the affected area skyrockets. The recharge is quite low, and with some reduction it can be really easy to dish out a frightening number of fiery orbs of death. The speed at which the orb travels is quite low, which takes some getting used to, but also can be used to your advantage by lobbing the orb at enemies and using the travel time to set up the traps the affected enemies will run headlong into. Another important thing I'd point out is its virtually unlimited range. You can use it on the corner of the screen when you're zoomed out as much as it's possible, and often you can use it on monsters you can't possibly reach otherwise.

Ring of Fire, Soften Metal

Something of an oddity. This is going to steadily reduce the health of enemies around you. At first it doesn't look like much. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that this is not retaliation damage, this is not damage reflection: this is fire damage which the Pyromancer automatically deals to all enemies within range. Which means it scales with Intellect, it scales with every fire damage boost you have.

With both skills maxed (which, admittedly, is quite the investment), you're looking at 80 fire damage every second. I personally find that respectable. However, it also costs 16 energy per second at this point. Is it really worth spending that much for some supplementary damage? Why is it good?

There are a few other skills in the mastery this will have nice synergies with.

Heat Shield

It gives a fixed 15% physical resistance. I'd say it's worth putting one point into it just for that. It also gives some fire damage absorption, which is not all that important, but fun. To my knowledge, it stacks with your resistance multiplicatively, and that way can increase your effective resistance above the 80% cap. Which is usually not really important, but it's fun owning Surtr because you take only a few percents of damage from his attacks.

What ultimately makes it a bad investment, however, I believe, is that if you are any serious about using fire (especially if you're using weapon attacks, because once again, huge flat burning damage bonus), you should be using at least one Seal of Hephaestus (seriously, it's too good to pass up). Which grants you a level 11 Heat Shield, and I find it's simply not worth the skill points to compete with that.

Still, having one skill point in it might useful. Your Heat Shield and the Heat Shield from the Seal use different cooldowns, so you can consistently supply an ally (or your Core Dweller, when playing alone) with your extra Heat Shield.

Stone Form, Molten Rock

Panic button extraordinaire. Instant invulnerability for six seconds (eight if you're taking the synergy). What's the catch?

You don't get to do anything. So your enemies keep swinging at you. When the Stone Form ends, you'll not be any better off, and they will still be there.

Or will they?

This is what I've been alluding to under Ring of Fire. You can pop an Eruption and activate Stone Form, but when you're using the latter as a panic button, you hardly have time for that. However, Ring of Fire provides constant fire damage. Heat Shield adds burn retaliation, and Molten Rock has fire retaliation. You might have other retaliation effects from items, too. The Core Dweller can help out a little. Separately, they can be pretty unimpressive, but they do add up. I have killed Fafnir this way; keeping Stone Form up, having him bite at you can whittle down his health remarkably quickly, in fact. It still takes a while, but then it's Fafnir.

Sadly, all of this is moot against ranged enemies and casters. But oh well. It's not your focus, just a nice extra.

Summon Core Dweller, Inner Fire, Wildfire, Metamorphosis

Ah, the fabled Core Dweller. I'd put one point into each skill as soon as they're available, but it seems to me that until the very end of the game, it's more or less safe to leave them that way. Putting some more can help with your pet's survivability, but seeing how you should be able to eliminate your attackers pretty quickly, it shouldn't be a top priority on the list.

Volativity

Two words: max this. No matter what you do. If you're taking Earth, you're probably interested in at least two of the three damage types it boosts. The chance of the proc is good, and the damage bonus is phenomenal. This skill is fantastic, and worth every skill point put into it.

Eruption

Another insane skill. Once again, mixed physical and fire damage means it's going to scale decently whether you're a fighter or a caster. It has a nice radius, and an amount of fragments increasing with the skill level, which spread its deadly influence even further. If you're a caster, you'll probably want to max this. Popping an Eruption under your own feet and then entering Stone Form is a pretty nice way of destroying clusters of melee enemies, but it's also very useful for stationary groups of archers and casters, slow-moving bosses, but even faster ones considering that it affects a rather large area.

Notes

Still work in progress; I'm most likely going to update this following recommendations and other ideas I might have in the following days. Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 06 May 2018, 15:51:47
you got me smiling  :)  .. I'll read this fully some other time.. i can't spend too much time reading atm but if you may, i have a quick question.. since you mentioned str and how it boosts physical damage from spells now.. my haruspex, the advantages str gives me are more item choices and instant damage.. instant damage because distortion wave deals DoT, and if i spam distortion wave, the DoT will just reset to maximum but it will not stack.. but if i boost the physical damage in it as well, then it's worth spamming.. regarding items, i can have access to visor of the shadowlord for example.. it gives 50%? EBD.. so i can boost my elem damage while boosting str.. i can also wear a shield which increases my survivability greatly.. and it gives me 2 items instead of just 1 (staff).. in my experience, it's easier to up resists that way.. weapon i chose is Neith's will (Lykaion Malleus is good also).. I also have options for other items like Alexander's Cuirass for example which gives +2 all skills.. so my question, do you have str based items in mind that can be good for casters? because if so, then even though fire deals good enough instant damage already, at least with physical you won't have a problem against immunities.. you can still deal good damage against water spirits, fire giants, and Surtr.. I'm guessing Neith's will is still a good option.. aside from recharge and resists, it gives total damage which increases physical, fire and burn
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 06 May 2018, 23:06:36
i was now able to fully read your guide.. nice pairing of ring of fire and stone form.. i haven't thought of it that way.. to answer my earlier comment, since you mentioned seal of Hephaestus is too good to pass up, i thought about hand of Hephaestus.. that one you can increase elem damage while boosting str.. and str won't be a waste because i tested in AE before with a defiler cheat test character, eruption is still good in act 4 legendary even if you boost only str (about 500-600) and nothing in int.. plus you don't have to put too many points on dex so you could focus on str and int only.. the shield i doubt it's worth choosing over Pelaron or Deimos (or Aionios if you have, i don't).. for boots, i recently found a Legguards of the Flameborn (https://www.tq-db.net/equipment/legguards-of-the-flameborn).. it's str based but it's too good to pass up if you're a str based earth.. for helm, it's probably better to stick with int based helms right? like Hallowed or crown of dokmaar.. or helm of the (magus? the one with recharge, I'm loosing my TQ touch :) ).. but while skimming TQ-DB, i saw that crystalline helm gives 40% damage reflected.. it's also str based.. i once saw a toon by Workable Krakatoa at reddit (or was it his youtube channel Clex Plays? can't remember. i think i saw it on reddit), he had a earth/dream? char that relies on damage reflection using stone form while reflecting damage.. i think it's dangerous and i prefer to kill enemies myself anyway but there's no denying the idea is ingenious.. also, i would like to share one thing i like with casters not relying on weapon attacks.. you can wear Aphrodite's Favor and not worry about the mind control.. it's really irritating to use it on weapon user toons but for casters, nope it's very good.. of course all of these assuming you have pre-farmed items already.. so yeah those are my take for a str/int earth caster

edit: yep i knew i saw it on reddit (the stone form damage reflection build)

https://www.reddit.com/r/TitanQuestAE/comments/858gua/overpowered_reflect_mechanics_and_how_they_work/
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 07 May 2018, 00:14:53
I haven't read over all the items too much, so I don't have that much of an idea yet.

One that springs to mind is Prometheus's Gift. Hand of Hephaestus is good, but this one's better, I believe. Also comes with a big flat burning damage bonus, and while not part of the set, it grants a skill, Prometheus's Gift, which adds a further bonus to fire damage, burn damage, and once again some more flat burn damage. It's an aura, which applies to all allies in a pretty wide radius, and is automatically on without any energy reserved or energy cost.

Armor of the Burning Blade looks good, although sadly you can't stack two Earth Enchantments onto each other. Of course, a good Blacksteel Plate could help you out, though the legendary versions probably require too much strength (haven't seen one yet, though); same applies to any other Blacksteel equipment that gives bonus to Earth skills. The Firewalker set might be interesting earlier on. Odysseus's Armor, possibly; not a lot else comes to mind. Neith's Will is good, though I think there are other, better alternatives later on. I'll look into them.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: CrocMagnum on 07 May 2018, 13:58:07
Finally! Nice work, Firebrand. A few remarks:

- Earth has changed quite a bit from Titan Quest to the Anniversary Edition, Stat-wise for starters:

# Titan Quest (Original)

90 INT
0 DEX !!
560 HEALTH
160 ENERGY

# Anniversary Edition

90 INT
48 DEX
720 HEALTH
192 ENERGY

Observation : Earth Mastery has gone through some great fine-tuning between Editions (Titan Quest > Immortal Throne > Anniversary Edition) and unlike other Masteries (yeah I ‘m looking at you Hunting Mastery :P) it has never suffered from any crippling nerf. In other words Earth is getting better and better over the years, Stat-wise and Skill-wise \o/,

- Earth has NO Debuff. This becomes a problem in higher difficulties. Taking a secondary including a Debuff Skill -Storm, Nature, Hunting,...- is often a sound plan,

- Eruption goes through terrain, it’s very helpful when your under geared or under leveled, when you can’t keep up with tough enemies,
 
-  I know you already alluded to it but I like to specify. In the original Titan Quest you could not increase the radius of Earth Enchantment no matter what (fixed 6 meter radius). In old days trying to apply the buff on your pets forced you to stay near them (could be very dangerous for caster classes). Now in the Anniversary Edition the radius of the skill grows the more points you put into it (+12 meter at Skill Level 12/12),

- Heat Shield now absorbs a percentage of Fire Damage for 100 seconds,

Comment: Even better. Instead of losing the shield after a treshold of fire damage, now the Heat Shield absorbs a % of Fire Damage for 100 seconds. If it's sounds like a nerf it's not: you have 100 seconds of guaranteed Damage Absorption against Fire that inrceases with the level of the skill. Finally the 15% Damage (Physical Resist), which was the major selling point of the skill, is still there in the AE.

The only problem you might come across is trying to cast Heat Shield on multiple allies (pets mostly), in AE Heat Shield has a 60 sec cooldown, which is still better than original Titan Quest where the cooldown of Heat Shield was 90 sec! So even that part too is better in the AE,

This is what come to my mind right now. I sincerely can't wait to read the full guide, Firebrand. Godspeed. 8)

Note: Sorry for not posting much these days but it's comforting to see loyal members keeping this place going round. Kudos to you.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Deepblue on 07 May 2018, 14:07:56

Stone Form, Molten Rock

Panic button extraordinaire. Instant invulnerability for six seconds (eight if you're taking the synergy). What's the catch?

You don't get to do anything. So your enemies keep swinging at you. When the Stone Form ends, you'll not be any better off, and they will still be there.

Or will they?

This is what I've been alluding to under Ring of Fire. You can pop an Eruption and activate Stone Form, but when you're using the latter as a panic button, you hardly have time for that. However, Ring of Fire provides constant fire damage. Heat Shield adds burn retaliation, and Molten Rock has fire retaliation. You might have other retaliation effects from items, too. The Core Dweller can help out a little. Separately, they can be pretty unimpressive, but they do add up. I have killed Fafnir this way; keeping Stone Form up, having him bite at you can whittle down his health remarkably quickly, in fact. It still takes a while, but then it's Fafnir.

Sadly, all of this is moot against ranged enemies and casters. But oh well. It's not your focus, just a nice extra.



I'm guessing it's use would be against really damaging attacks that don't get used that often but maybe you think you can't avoid it (like you said, panic button)

I can imagine pairing this up with Nature and having all summons attacking the boss while you sit there and let it attack you, basically be a tank to defend your summons. (as long as you have enough energy of course)
Actually, what's the cooldown on this? Obviously more than 6 seconds means this strategy wouldn't work so well.



The Core Dweller is probably most useful for bosses if you kill basic enemies really fast.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 07 May 2018, 14:34:45
i see the bonus attributes have been increased.. that's huge if you ask me

and finally the dude is back
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 07 May 2018, 19:57:37
All good points. Honestly, I didn't even remember to compare the stats gained before and after Anniversary Edition.

One really handy trick I discovered by accident, if you want to rely on Stone Form a lot: Falcon Cape. Falcon Cape is really amazing for my Stonespeaker, personally, which is why I know about this. But let's see what it offers.
- 40% Elemental Resistance. Quite okay. Nothing to write home about, as your fire resistance will likely be off the charts, but the other two might be useful in a pinch.
- 10% Chance to Avoid Projectiles. Pretty good, no matter what kind of character you're going for.
- +10% Total Speed. More useful for fighters than for casters, as the impact of this on attack speed will generally be higher than that of casting speed. On the other hand, casting speed is quite difficult to get reliably, in my experience, and you need to sacrifice other items to get enough of it (I'm still using a Star Stone instead of another Seal of Hephaestus or something similar on my Stonespeaker), so maybe a few items with bonus to total speed might go a long way. Increased run speed is always welcome.
- +2 to all skills in Rune Mastery: Really nice if you're a Stonespeaker, does literally nothing if you're anything else with Earth.
- +1 to all skills in Rogue Mastery: Same as the above, just with Magician.
Okay, but what is that below all of this? That's right, a skill.
- Grants skill: Level 14 Refresh [Activated on low health]
That's right. Activated on low health. Activate Stone Form, have your Ring of Fire, Heat Shield and Molten Rock do the work for you, and when you get out of it, get hit and wounded, the automatic Refresh will reset the recharge time of Stone Form! I think that the built-in Refresh has quite a high recharge time, but then with enough recharge reduction you can pretty much reduce Stone Form's recharge below its duration, so all of this is moot. Just throwing it out there.

Stone Form actually works well with a lot of skills, I believe. A list I've quickly compiled:
- Earth: Ring of Fire, Heat Shield, Summon Core Dweller, Eruption (technically Volativity, as it should boost both Eruption and Ring of Fire)
- Storm: Static Charge, Storm Surge, Reflection, Summon Wisp, Squall - Obscured Visibility
- Spirit: Deathchill Aura, Summon Liche King, Summon Outsider
- Nature: Plague, Call of the Wild, Sylvan Nymph, Refresh
- Warfare: Counterattack, Ancestral Horn
- Defense: Rally - Defiance
- Hunting: Study Prey - Flush Out, Herbal Remedy
- Rogue: Lay Trap, Poison Gas Bomb, Envenom Weapon
- Dream: Trance of Empathy, Trance of Wrath, Distortion Field, Summon Nightmare
- Rune: Rune Weapon - Magical Charge, Seal of Fate - Aftershock, Guardian Stones

Some of these work well, others not so much. There are potential anti-synergies here. Using Stone Form and Storm Surge together capitalizes nicely on the fact that while you'd take no melee damage from the hit, you are still being hit and therefore Storm Surge activates. On the other hand, the stun effect prevents them from hitting you more for a short time, therefore they won't take as much retaliation or reflection damage (although Ring of Fire of course still applies).

A few are obvious. Summons still attack while you're in Stone Form, so those of course are on the list. Poison, damage-over-time effects, and prolonged resistance reduction all play nicely onto your passive damage from multiple sources. Additional retaliation damage works, as well as reflection (as the reflected damage is determined before resistances or absorption would kick in).

However, one that truly stands out to me from that list is Trance of Wrath. It periodically deals pretty hefty Electrical Burn damage to all around the character, the only effect similar to Ring of Fire in that it is not retaliation damage or reflection but simple damage dealt automatically and periodically by the caster, therefore buffed by Intellect and all percentile bonuses to Electrical Burn damage. On the top of that, it reduces resistances! The skill disruption is not as relevant as you'd be in Stone Form anyway, but I feel that an Evoker might be really interesting when combining these four spells to kill enemies simply by being around them and getting attacked.

I'm not here to pretend I know about pets, though. While yes, your idea with a Summoner and letting your summons do the job sounds good, but I've never had a petmaster, so I won't leave further comment on that. It seems to me that Earth and Nature complement each other in a number of other ways, though, anyway.

One thing to keep in mind that is while you're killing basic mobs really fast, they usually do the same to you. It's usually avoidable by killing them still faster (it's what Earth is best at, after all), it's always reassuring to see a horde of Melinoes jump at your Core Dweller, rather than you. There are bosses that kill it really quickly, though, so keep that in mind.

A note to tend is that I'm fairly busy these days. I'll try to update this as soon as I can, but I might take a while. Some of the statements above I haven't rigorously tested, but I'm fairly certain about most of them.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 07 May 2018, 20:58:33
I'm not here to pretend I know about pets, though. While yes, your idea with a Summoner and letting your summons do the job sounds good, but I've never had a petmaster, so I won't leave further comment on that. It seems to me that Earth and Nature complement each other in a number of other ways, though, anyway.
uhmm i reread CrocMagnum's reply and i didn't see any petmaster.. so hmm could this be a response to my reply to Bobinho's thread?  (https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=429.msg4343#msg4343)  .. if so, don't get me wrong man.. I'm not pushing for a petmaster.. i hate pure petmasters.. i get bored with it too quickly.. in fact, you probably know what i would push for :))  .. it's just that Bobinho plays console and console don't have ragnarok yet so rune is out, throwing weapon is out, and also it's more difficult for self-found toons to get high CDR.. i think it's easier in ragnarok to get high CDR.. also, Bobinho said he don't like playing casters.. but the biggest reason, is iirc i read somewhere that plague is bugged in console.. so if plague is out, that takes out many other builds for a summoner
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 08 May 2018, 20:16:46
I think you mean the knifethrowers, @botebote77, am I right?

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it already, but I personally believe that when it comes to boosting weapon attacks, the biggest bonus you get from Earth is the huge burn damage from Brimstone, especially for throwing knives as the physical damage bonus from Brimstone and Volativity don't work on them.

As a result, bladeflinger Magicians sound different from other knifethrowers. From both of your masteries, your greatest asset is damage over time. You get the poison damage from Envenom Weapon, augmented by all the upgrades and every related bonus, bleeding damage if you're into that (Anatomy boosts that quite well), and you have the burn damage from Brimstone (which, again, should be the main Earth-related DPS source on your knives), and everything boosting that (also including Seal of Hephaestus or anything similar you should have).

So I imagine that you wouldn't really spam knives, so to say, because the shortest damage-over-time you have has a duration of three seconds. That should help with the energy problems that other fellow bladeflingers face. I imagine that this opens up the option to use the remaining time to throw a Volcanic Orb or an Eruption to help the knives out, if necessary, though dexterity doesn't help those at all, so I'm questioning.

I might try this kind of Magician sometime soon, at any rate.

Also, the petmaster-related response was to Deepblue, not to CrocMagnum.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 08 May 2018, 21:07:46
oh to Deepblue.. my bad then

I'm an advocate of casters in general.. not just knifethrowers
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Gautrec on 09 May 2018, 13:27:55
Summons still attack while you're in Stone Form, so those of course are on the list. Poison, damage-over-time effects, and prolonged resistance reduction all play nicely onto your passive damage from multiple sources. Additional retaliation damage works, as well as reflection (as the reflected damage is determined before resistances or absorption would kick in).
I actually believe that the synergy between Stone Form and reflection is the most powerful of them all :) Especially with the new Ichthian Icescale MIs from Ragnarok, a reflection-based Juggernaut or the like is probably one of the most broken characters in all of TQ :P With enough cooldown reduction, you can keep up Stone Form and Rally permanently, killing the most difficult bosses in a few seconds without breaking a sweat. I have to admit that I never finished my playthrough with that build, though - mostly because the gameplay becomes kind of boring after a while... in constrast to a build with Trance of Wrath, like Firebrand suggested, here, trash mobs are, ironically, the most difficult/annoying to kill. This lead me to just skip most enemies, levelling only via quests & boss runs, which were so easy that it felt like cheating :/
     If you want to know more about the power of reflect builds anyways, I would suggest you to head over to Clex's Youtube channel and watch his videos on advanced reflect mechanics and the reflect Evoker: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWP2ABMB20FD2N_-ochNERQ/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWP2ABMB20FD2N_-ochNERQ/videos)
     And yes, I do realise that I quote a lot of his content... But no, he is not paying me any money for that  :))
I just like his stuff :)

Edit: @botebote77 actually mentioned the strength of reflect builds a few posts further up, but I guess I can leave this post as a report on my personal experience with it (and to remind me of my shame for skip reading for all eternity).
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 09 May 2018, 13:42:05
it's the same i posted above :)  ..  i can imagine it being very powerful and very boring at the same time.. but it is ingenious.. seriously, damage reflection needs a tweak in this game.. it should be like thorns where the damage you deal is the damage you take
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Gautrec on 09 May 2018, 14:08:45
Well, that's a little embarassing  :)) So much for reading the thread you reply to...
But I agree with you, @botebote77, reflect definitely does need a nerf.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 09 May 2018, 16:37:21
don't be like that.. same thing happened to me as well, on this thread in fact.. replying to a comment that has nothing to do with me.. all because i did not fully read every comment :))
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 11 May 2018, 22:52:58
One little thing that only occurred to me recently:

The description of Soften Metal states damage. Not Fire damage, just damage, which implies to me that it deals physical damage. This means that even Ring of Fire benefits from strength, and that fighter characters also have a decent shot at damaging their foes with Soften Metal.

At least if I'm interpreting things correctly. But Flame Arch clearly states that the additional damage it provides is fire, so I don't see why Soften Metal wouldn't do the same if it was fire damage.

I think I'm going to go start a new game with a Battlemage sometime soon. It seems there's an amazing number of synergies ripe for trying.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Laionidas on 18 June 2018, 14:55:41
Summon Core Dweller, Inner Fire, Wildfire, Metamorphosis

Ah, the fabled Core Dweller. I'd put one point into each skill as soon as they're available, but it seems to me that until the very end of the game, it's more or less safe to leave them that way. Putting some more can help with your pet's survivability, but seeing how you should be able to eliminate your attackers pretty quickly, it shouldn't be a top priority on the list.

I'm wondering here what your take is specifically on Wildfire. I heard a lot of player never put any points in it past one, even after they've covered their priorities, because the slightly increased flat fire damage and reduced offensive ability is never worth the investment of another whopping 11 points.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 20 June 2018, 19:22:05
I'll need to admit: I haven't even tried putting more than one point in Wildfire.

My reasoning (and, by extension, mindset) might be very one-dimensional here. Basically, I could invest some skill points to make my Core Dweller kill things faster, or... Alternatively, I could invest it in something that makes me kill things faster. Quite frankly, I'm much better at the whole business. Wildfire has some reduction of offensive ability, which is not too bad, but the reduction isn't that significant, and (unless you play a dedicated petmaster, I guess) your Core Dweller isn't going to have anywhere close to as much bonus to elemental and burn damages as your character does. I suppose it could be interesting to play as a Summoner with a focus on the petmaster items that boost elemental damage, and make better use of Wildfire as well as Plague for reducing their resistance, as well as the Sylvan Nymph's Nature's Wrath; I haven't tried.

One more thing I'd add is - in line with how I'd personally prioritize skills that help you kill things faster - is how there are a lot of those. Like I probably mentioned in the original post, personally I find quite a few skills worth maxing from Earth for most character builds. Earth Enchantment, Volcanic Orb, Conflagration, Fragmentation, Eruption, and Volativity; only these and the mastery points themselves account for a hundred skill points, and that's not counting your secondary mastery, nor anything else you might want to take (Brimstone if you're using weapon attacks or throwing knives, Flame Surge if it's your primary attack, et cetera). Point is, you're probably always going to find something that gives you better value for your skill points than Wildfire.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Mook on 26 June 2018, 21:24:52
Hi. TQ is my present addiction, and I am developing a stable of Normal characters. My latest was supposed to be a Storage, but I started having fun killing Spartan bandits with a torch. So now I want a Fiery Dragon Sword!
He is a Stonespeaker, equipped with the fastest weapons + Prometheus charm. I can't decide whether to aim for Transmutation or not.
From what I read, staying partly physical +strength means better armour which means better odds if he is a melee, which is what I want him to be.
Converting all to elemental +intelligence means More damage, and extra points for dexterity which means better weapons, particularly if I am sticking with weapons like the Sabertooth. I'm not sure how far Feather will take me.
This character is a fun character, a melee ball of doom that I would like to survive to the end of Normal.
Which road do you suggest?
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 27 June 2018, 05:56:58
I'll just throw my vote while we wait for firebrand to see this.. of course i suggest you still wait for firebrand.. in terms of experience, he beats me when it comes to earth.. i am assuming you would want to continue to epic once you beat normal

it took me about 1000+ hrs of experience and a bunch of very good items before i got confident playing a hybrid (str, dex, int) :)

so i vote for int, dex with int being the higher stat

there are other ways of surviving besides high armor anyways.. and if you really want high armor, earth has stone skin.. there are lots of better skills than that though
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Laionidas on 27 June 2018, 11:36:39
I can't decide whether to aim for Transmutation or not.
From what I read, staying partly physical +strength means better armour which means better odds if he is a melee, which is what I want him to be.

Even when maxed, Transmutation does not fully convert all weaon damage. At 6 points it's only 63%, and I guess with the diminishing returns rule, not even +4 to all skills will get you up to a 100%. In short, this means you will always stay partly physical.

I am currently playing a ranged Stonespeaker myself and find it to be one of the easiest characters I've made to date. I am investing in Int. and Dex., as well as in Str., but I am keeping Str. as low as possible. Even with Runeword: Feather though, I need at least a few points in Str. to equip the throwing weapon of my choosing. I guess that also answers your question; Runeword: Feather will not take you far enough, especially considering most melee weapons will have a higher Str. requirement than any ranged weapon.

Finally, I find that while my damage input is insane, it's not the tankiest build (though it's by no means 'squishy' either). However, for a melee build that plays out a bit different. I'd go for more armour and a shield instead of dual-wielding. You need additional Str. again for that. Now I'd say the shield is more important than the armour; you can still keep Str. relatively low, since Runeword: Feather does apply to shields, then you can compromise on the armour for a bit.

In summary: I'd advice you to invest in all three attributes, yet at the same time go for as close to a full conversion as you can get.

and if you really want high armor, earth has stone skin.. there are lots of better skills than that though

The problem with Stone Skin IMO, is that it also grounds you. As a panic button for a non-retaliation, non-passive caster build, it just results in giving mobs more time to gang up on you.

it took me about 1000+ hrs of experience and a bunch of very good items before i got confident playing a hybrid (str, dex, int) :)

I dunno, I think Rune in combination with Earth is a bit of a game changer in this respect.

Like I said, with or without conversion, I find it a really relaxed and easy build to play.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 27 June 2018, 12:01:54
ultimate max transmutation is 99% elemental conversion


The problem with Stone Skin IMO, is that it also grounds you. As a panic button for a non-retaliation, non-passive caster build, it just results in giving mobs more time to gang up on you.

i think you mean stone form? stone skin is the 3rd upgrade of earth enchantment

Like I said, with or without conversion, I find it a really relaxed and easy build to play.
so you mean a true hybrid? not fake hybrid?

congratulations you have leveled up  :))
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Laionidas on 27 June 2018, 14:47:58
Like I said, with or without conversion, I find it a really relaxed and easy build to play.
so you mean a true hybrid? not fake hybrid?

congratulations you have leveled up  :))

Thank you, thank you,..

The intended switch to Throwing Weapon more or less forces me to grab some Str., and I have yet to put any points in Transmutation. I'm in Act II Epic, with zero conversion, and my damage is more than adequate. Even with Transmutation I guess the physical damage output will still be quite significant.

ultimate max transmutation is 99% elemental conversion


The problem with Stone Skin IMO, is that it also grounds you. As a panic button for a non-retaliation, non-passive caster build, it just results in giving mobs more time to gang up on you.

i think you mean stone form? stone skin is the 3rd upgrade of earth enchantment

Uhhh,.. yeah, I meant Stone Form  ;D

Stone Skin isn't bad, but hardly ever worth the points, at least not more than 1.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 27 June 2018, 19:42:46
I'm gonna deviate a little from the topic

Stone Skin isn't bad, but hardly ever worth the points, at least not more than 1.

most of the time yes.. most of earth builds yes

but there are always exceptions  8)
there are skills often deemed not worth spending more than 1 point.. but if these skills give a certain attribute that can be helpful, and if it stacks, piling one on top of another may be worth it.

and in a juggernaut's case, stone skin, battle awareness, and rally, 3 skills that are often considered not worth spending more than 1 point, all give bonus to armor.. and if you pile them on top of another, suddenly you can get quite a high bonus to armor.. and they are all global meaning all your gear benefits from them.

by now some people know where I'm going to.. Benitot's master armorer guide :)
i haven't tried that build yet but i approve of the guide and the idea.

of course i approve of the idea because i ripped his idea of stacking one attribute on top of another :)) .. my skinchanger guide but in that case, i piled damage absorption on top of another.. sanctuary is rarely maxed at least from the builds i see and read.. overgrowth is often seen a worthless skill but in this build, i swear it really helps.. i don't know the consensus on energy armor but from what I'm reading, people don't like the 3000+ energy cost.. the combination of 3 skills together with briar ward makes it a very tanky build.

p.s: we really need to see @Benitot 's juggernaut master armorer build guide ported to here  ;)
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 27 June 2018, 20:01:12
I'm not an expert of the game, by a long shot, but I'll give you my two cents.

Long story short: for a melee Stonespeaker (or any Stonespeaker, really), I'd go for Transmutation. I'll elaborate below.

First of all: With +4 to all skills, Transmutation gives you 99% conversion. Some of your damage stays physical, and you can keep your Transmutation lower if you still want physical, but personally I don't really see the point. If you're going to focus on intellect, then might as well go for full conversion. And with a Stonespeaker, I see little reason not to.

The thing is, in my personal opinion, both Rune and Earth are decent at supporting another mastery with good physical damage output. But on their own, they don't provide much in this way, at least definitely not enough to go physical over elemental. Especially because most masteries have so amazing returns on your invested intellect that it's almost a crime not to put the majority of points into that.

Rune, of course, gives you your Elemental Charge as well as Transmutation, and a flat elemental bonus damage is already pretty powerful. There's Runic Mines, there's Runeword: Explode and Runeword: Burn. One of them gives you physical damage as well, but you shouldn't overlook what looks like a humble burn damage on the other.

So what does Earth give you? At the first glance, it doesn't boost your weapon damage much. Earth Enchantment provides only an almost negligible flat fire damage bonus, and the percentile increase of fire and burn damage shouldn't affect much - although with full Transmutation, it should increase 33% of your weapon damage already.

Brimstone provides some meager increase to physical damage, which shouldn't concern you, but wait - what's that hiding in the corner? When maxed, Brimstone adds 98 burn damage over three seconds. With +4 to all skills (or at least Brimstone), this becomes a whopping 182. It's affected by your intellect. It's affected by any modifier you have, such as Earth Enchantment, it should stack with the aforementioned Runeword: Burn (damage-over-time from the same source overwrites itself, but different sources should stack to my knowledge). Not to mention Volativity! It's pretty insane. It's quite easily overlooked, but with Anniversary Edition, Earth has become one of the best damage-over-time masteries in the game. And it relies on intellect.

Both Volcanic Orb and Eruption are boosted by both strength and intellect, but only intellect increases the burn component of Volcanic Orb. You likely want to use these spells often, especially if you're planning to go melee.

That said, a melee Stonespeaker might be quite challenging. I transitioned to throwing weapons even before finishing Normal. It's quite easy that way - you get to distribute the burn damage, and to use your utterly insane DPS to bring enemies down before they reach you. Rune or Earth don't provide too much in the way of survivability, though, so if you rely on melee, you might get in trouble.

You'll probably need a maxed Energy Armor and a way to cast it consistently; this means equipping some armor or jewelry with energy cost reduction and perhaps an alternate weapon set to help out. You might want to pay extra attention to your resistances as well (me being me, I dual-wielded Chakrams of the Sun and mostly ignored resistances, but I'm not a good example). Pierce will likely be problematic.

As for attrbutes, you'll likely need about 250-300 strength and some 420 dexterity in the very end. I'd put the rest into intellect.

As for the Stone Form discussion: it does change things if you plop an Eruption under yourself before activating Stone Form. Molten Rock, Ring of Fire, and the retaliation from Elemental Charge also help, and so does the burn retaliation from Heat Shield. Mobs can die to the combination of these more quickly than you'd think. But you're right, at times it just won't work out well. (Hint: Stone Form doesn't prevent you from switching weapon sets or drinking potions.)

I don't find Stone Skin useful enough to warrant more than one point, either.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Hector on 27 June 2018, 23:19:34
I'd like to ask some questions, or maybe just share some thoughts about earth; frankly I don't know what I'm gonna write as I'm typing this..
Had a battlemage, couldn't sustain his defensive side no matter what I did (always wearing up-to-date armors, having more than 20% physical resist {heat shield + wineskin relic}, CtDA and what not).. a couple of hits from certain "trash" enemies from Act II and my 2500ish health goes down to below half in an instant.. good killing speed, the debuffs from hamstring, none of them helped the situation..

So I went ahead and changed earth to spirit.. I believe this is some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder.. I mean always trying to balance shit and making stuff in a "default" state, so to speak.. warfare has mainly physical, and its secondary damage is bleeding so I "should" choose something related with that element and hope to see some positive results after this stupid maintenance bullshit..

By the help of deathchill and some ADCtH, it seemed to solve the problem above.. but I still not feel satisfied due to losing all that fire and burn damage and the potential future of that battlemage..

I don't know what to think or do anymore..and don't know what I want.. used to be a smart player once, but I think losing some parts of your intellect is just another curse of getting old..     
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 27 June 2018, 23:52:15
i picked gasconron's brain a few months back.. might help
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=355.msg3431#msg3431

that's a Thane build but from what i understand, he plays battlemage almost the same.. the following comments might also help

edit: btw as for warfare/spirit, battle standard goes really well with that recharge totem skill from spirit.. cast them at the same time
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: tholuneve on 28 June 2018, 05:15:55
Long story short: for a melee Stonespeaker (or any Stonespeaker, really), I'd go for Transmutation.

I totally agree with this. O0
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Mook on 28 June 2018, 08:16:30
Thank you for the clear explanations.! I benefit from seeing things in writing, not just half baked ideas floating in my head.
Energy for the E armor. There are two energy skills in Rune?  Energy drain on your weapon, which will be multiplied by Explode? And Absorb on your shield, collecting from enemy offensive"spells" when cast? Are spells any skills they use?



I came across a "small torch",  dps (fire) a bit less than my fiery gladius. I'd practise with it, but I'm still steamrolling opposition. I will look at throwing weapons in the future though, and keep my running legs on.
Reading your posts has made me really excited for all this fire (and brimstone) to come.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Hector on 28 June 2018, 18:32:23
i picked gasconron's brain a few months back.. might help
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=355.msg3431#msg3431

that's a Thane build but from what i understand, he plays battlemage almost the same.. the following comments might also help

edit: btw as for warfare/spirit, battle standard goes really well with that recharge totem skill from spirit.. cast them at the same time

Thanks botebote.. I read the topic.. I'm gonna keep him as a spellbreaker and try the combination that you suggested..

Why didn't they increase the radius of vision of death?? it could have been a kickass CC tool if its radius could be raised by additional skill points.. 3 meters just won't cut it for scattered archer/thrower groups..
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 28 June 2018, 21:29:26
Fire and brimstone you'll have enough. You probably couldn't have chosen a better class.

Small Torch is a really nice throwing weapon for the early game. Might last quite long, in fact, especially because you're focused on fire.

You have two energy-related skills; I'd say that Energy Drain is the more useful as it also gives you attack damage converted to health, which will be pretty much a necessity to survive later on. The energy leech is really nice to have, too. I haven't tried Runeword: Absorb yet, as I'm dual-wielding, so can't say much. Keep in mind that neither skill is going to help you cast Energy Armor. The problem is not any kind of energy drain, but that it has a gigantic energy cost. Minor spoiler: at maxed level with at least +4 to all skills, it's going to cost 3460 energy! So you either have an energy pool that big (not really a good idea), or you use items to reduce the energy cost for you. But this is all the future.

And yes, Runeword: Explode applies all effects of your weapon attack to all enemies affected. This includes the energy drain, the burn damage (which should be, again, between Brimstone and Runeword: Burn and any other bonuses, phenomenal), and the attack damage converted to health.

I have one piece of advice for you. While your melee abilities are certainly strong, don't expect to be able to take on everything with a sword alone later on. Rune offers you some decent spells (dual-wielding thrown weapons is where Thunder Strike truly shines, but it's quite good with melee as well, and Runic Mines complements a melee character really well - it's a skill I personally have neglected), but Earth offers some of Titan Quest's finest mass destruction in the form of Volcanic Orb and Eruption. Learn them well, and they'll serve you throughout the entire game. They're quite fun, too!
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 29 June 2018, 00:05:30
i want to add something.. I've played rune as a melee so i know this: runeword: burn does not work on melee weapons.. runeword:explode does but not runeword:burn.. not sure if the burn damage still applies to the enemy you are hitting but I'm sure there will be no fragments

edit: when runeword:explode procs from a melee weapon, you will notice it by its animation.. the animation is just like the gouge skill from hunting, which will cause a little delay.. but it will hit adjacent mobs

also, there will be no fragments from thunder strike even if you use thrown weapons

unless they changed it in v1.57 but that seems unlikely

@Hector i used to use enslave spirit on my melee bonecharmer.. works well against archers.. mind control one of them then retreat.. the others will not follow you they will just attack the one you mind controlled.. you're now free to attack them one by one
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Hector on 29 June 2018, 01:28:23
Excellent idea!! just like the necromancer with his attract curse, eh 8)
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 29 June 2018, 02:24:40
Excellent idea!! just like the necromancer with his attract curse, eh 8)
yes.. now if you can just cast iron maiden too...

heh the closest would be trance of empathy from dream

old school gaming ftw O0
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Mook on 29 June 2018, 10:32:04
Rune weapon does work on single throwing weapons?  My gladius fires up immediately, but even after a room of undead, the small torch, or a skeletal dart doesn't seem to charge Rune Weapon.
 I'm looking forward to eruption in particular, and have just taken the first level of "throwing a grenade" with the volcanic orb branch.

I can see why fire ele's have an reputation in the early game. He is outperforming my champion, hunter and diviner, though I suppose I am getting a bit more street-wise. And the odd bit of hand-me-down gear doesn't hurt either.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 29 June 2018, 11:11:44
Far as I know.  Only thing it doesn't work with is staves I believe.  Certainly hope it does anyway, just started a Stonespeaker which will pretty much be wiped out if it doesn't.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 29 June 2018, 12:26:47
Mook, it does

Medea, it doesn't

I've read people wanting rune weapon to work with staves but really up to now i fail to grasp the idea.. maybe because staff deals ele damage and it would scale with rune weapon? but transmutation converts any weapon damage to elemental anyways so the ele rune weapon scaling reasoning would be moot. the only reason i can think of is less skill points needed but eh that's it?

can anyone enlighten me on this?

edit: ahhhhh i think i get it now.. because throwing weapons or bow would require some dex whereas in staff, one can solely focus on int?

ok.. but i still think ternion is the best staff skill

edit 2: come to think of it, maybe the devs deliberately made it this way because a full int rune weapon staff character could potentially become overpowered at least damage wise.. actually, I've tried charging with a throwing weapon before then switching to staff to attack with thunder strike but no it doesn't work that way.. rune weapon aura instantly vanishes when you switch to staff.. thunder strike works with staves
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Medea Fleecestealer on 29 June 2018, 12:52:07
It would just be nice to have another LMB skill for staves.  We have Ternion which gobbles energy and I think Psionic Touch works with staves, but that's it.  Melee/ranged has Psionic Touch, Onslaught and Marksmanship.  None of the other caster masteries have an LMB skill which is a shame.  Since it works with everything else, why leave staves out?
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Hector on 29 June 2018, 17:16:29
Just as botebote explained; it would be moot.. transmutation converts non-elemental into elemental, yes? so what's it gonna convert from staves? it is already elemental..

I believe makers did not want to create something that would look amateurish/inconsistent on the surface, so they came up with this restriction.. I mean if ragnarok was rather a mod, none of us would care about any issues such as this and just omit transmutation totally when playing with a staff (the maker of the mod would most probably allow this skill to be used with anything even if meant leaving transmutation out of context when playing with staves).. anyway, just like you, I also would like to utilize staves with different skills other than that boring ternion skill..

Actually, I would greatly appreciate if someone suggest me some fun builds with staves as primary weapon.. I sell almost any staff I find while playing due to not having an idea about what to do with them save for ternion.. and it is absolutely not an option.. at least not for me..
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 30 June 2018, 03:40:51
Rune weapon does work on single throwing weapons?  My gladius fires up immediately, but even after a room of undead, the small torch, or a skeletal dart doesn't seem to charge Rune Weapon.
 I'm looking forward to eruption in particular, and have just taken the first level of "throwing a grenade" with the volcanic orb branch.

I can see why fire ele's have an reputation in the early game. He is outperforming my champion, hunter and diviner, though I suppose I am getting a bit more street-wise. And the odd bit of hand-me-down gear doesn't hurt either.

Don't forget to manually assign Rune Weapon to your left mouse button for your second weapon set as well! That might be the cause of your problem.

Rune Weapon definitely should work with a single thrown weapon as well.

It would just be nice to have another LMB skill for staves.  We have Ternion which gobbles energy and I think Psionic Touch works with staves, but that's it.  Melee/ranged has Psionic Touch, Onslaught and Marksmanship.  None of the other caster masteries have an LMB skill which is a shame.  Since it works with everything else, why leave staves out?

I actually think that Flame Surge and Ice Shard are pseudo-LMB skills, actually, or at least substitutes. Now if only the game allowed it to bind them to the left mouse button...
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 30 June 2018, 04:25:00
actually all caster masteries have LMB skills.. for dream, it has many.. for earth, it's volcanic orb which I'm sure firebrand already knows.. for storm, it's lightning bolt and thunder ball.. for nature, it's summon nymph.. yeah summon nymph.. apparently, the devs see something we still don't after all these years

if the devs allowed us to bind ice shard to LMB, i for sure would try it.. but after playing storm many many times already, i just got used to binding lightning bolt to LMB

Actually, I would greatly appreciate if someone suggest me some fun builds with staves as primary weapon.. I sell almost any staff I find while playing due to not having an idea about what to do with them save for ternion.. and it is absolutely not an option.. at least not for me..
I'm still thinking but the best i can come up with is reducing resistances or mind controlling.. i don't think that's what you mean.. frankly, i still don't see the importance of staff except for ternion and perhaps a full int caster like a druid.. but still in that case, a druid doesn't use a staff for attacking.. I love casters and I've had tons of experience with them and i don't think a staff is an ideal weapon.. well except perhaps for a druid.. and ternion which i don't consider as a caster.. how can it be a caster if it doesn't even rely on casting speed? :o

edit: and maybe an elementalist.. although iirc, my elementalist pre-AE wears santas shield.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Mook on 30 June 2018, 12:07:20
Rune weapon does work on single throwing weapons?  My gladius fires up immediately, but even after a room of undead, the small torch, or a skeletal dart doesn't seem to charge Rune Weapon.
 I'm looking forward to eruption in particular, and have just taken the first level of "throwing a grenade" with the volcanic orb branch.



Don't forget to manually assign Rune Weapon to your left mouse button for your second weapon set as well! That might be the cause of your problem.

Rune Weapon definitely should work with a single thrown weapon as well.


Woops. Thanks, that was the problem. :]
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Thanatos on 07 September 2018, 05:19:22
Hey everybody. It's been awhile since I've posted or played TQ. I've been playing a lot of Dark Souls on PS4 lately. Thanks for this well thought out guide Firebrand, especially your skills breakdown. That helps someone like me who's not familiar with Earth mastery. Before I go further, as I was making this post, I got the feeling that I might have made a very similar post here ages ago in another thread.  :-[ I honestly can't remember. lol Forgive me if that's the case!

I recently started a new character that's currently only level 12. My plan is to make this a caster build mostly focused on Volcanic Orb. Right now I am focused on putting points into this skill and its modifiers. I see a lot of people saying that they point their main skill on LMB. I don't really understand why. Maybe I'm missing something... Even in Grim Dawn I'd put cooldown skills like Canister Bomb on Right Mouse Button. I have been using Staff of the Magi and its default fireball attack on LMB with VO on RMB. This playstyle is sort of how I like to play.

I haven't decided on a secondary attack skill yet. I tried Flame Surge, but I personally didn't like it do to its short range and cooldown. Playing with Volcanic Orb makes me feel like a bit of a Demolitionist. I read what the OP said about Eruption, and I'll probably try that out once I get my mastery leveled up.

Defensively I will probably take Core Dweller and Stone Form. I haven't decided on a second mastery yet, although I am leaning toward Rune mastery due to all of the elemental synergies.

How I progress kind of depends on items of course, because I don't have a lot of items in my vault that support this character at the moment, but perhaps that'll change.

Here is a question, are there any good epic/legendary staffs that have a good default attack like Staff of the Magi in later levels that you guys recommend I keep an eye out for? I don't think I have any other good fire related staffs. Also, will playing this type of caster be impossible in Legendary? I know I've only given you 1 mastery because I'm undecided. Essentially I want to build a caster built around Volcanic Orb... any tips suggestions would be great!

And again, it's good to be back here catching up one what's going on. Once Autumn/Winter comes and the weather will be rotten here for about 4-5 months I will probably be playing a lot more TQ and GD, and involved with this wonderful forum.

Thanks!

*edit* I should also add that I am really wanting to make good use of burn as a secondary effect so I'll definitely be taking Earth Enchantment and its line along with Volativity
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 07 September 2018, 06:21:43
it's been a while.. i hope you remember me  :)

I'm probably not the one to answer because earth has never been my forte.. but I'm planning to play again this time also as an earth caster with volcanic orb as main attack

I've tried volcanic orb a bit before and i might have some answers to your question:

1) a true pure spellcaster doesn't attack with a weapon

2) a staff main attack that doesn't involve ternion just wanes later on.. i can say storm is a strength of mine and a staff attack with no ternion can never match ice shard.. even lightning bolt if not for the cooldown.. staff also is no match for distortion wave.. or throwing knife if you support it with something

3) volcanic orb is best used with shift key even if you bind it to RMB because if you press shift, volcanic orb seems to have no range limit.. and if your LMB is a spell attack, you press shift..  so there's that

although attacking with a staff is easier to reduce resistances.. so if your secondary mastery has no reduced resist, it makes sense to attack with a staff

of course early game when you have no enough CDR yet, you bind VO to RMB

as for your other question, eruption is very good
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Thanatos on 08 September 2018, 04:39:52
Yeah I remember you, botebote77.  : :D You dropped all kind of knowledge on me back when I made some casters. You helped a lot! I gotta go back and actually start playing some of those. lol

1. Interesting tidbit about staffs. Don't the also scale with Attack Speed? I am 100% indoctrinated into Grim Dawn's system of caster offhands, so it's a little weird to me understanding how casters work in TQ.

2. Thanks for reminding me about resist reduction. I'm not sure if Rune has RR skills or not, I should go check before I pick a secondary class.

3. So are you implying that with CDR gear later on, I will be able to semi-spam Volcanic Orb? That'd be cool!

4. Let me know how your Earth Caster goes, maybe we can provide each other with some feedback here in this thread. I'm planning to finish Act 1 and Act 2 Normal with my VO Mage this weekend. I'll keep you posted!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 08 September 2018, 06:49:05
1) they do scale with attack speed and that's the problem.. if they scale with cast speed instead it would be easier.. I've played many casters.. it's difficult to up your attack speed as well as cast speed because aside from cast speed you also need CDR, all skills, resists, and something that helps with energy.. the other problem with a non-ternion staff attack is it's only single target

2) it has but it's not easy to use again and again

3) with 80% CDR, cooldown becomes 1 sec.. so semi spam is the correct term

4) mine is a str + int earth + nature.. weapon + shield but doesn't attack with a weapon.. already found a good bracers on my TQvault: nerthus armbands
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Thanatos on 08 September 2018, 07:01:14
Those are nice armbands. I see they are level 44. What act/difficulty are you in with your char?

I just found The Small Torch throwing weapon and it is nice. I replaced my staff of the magi with that. This allows me to use a shield now. I'm like level 16 and just reached Athens. You guys are right about Eruption! It's been effective so far with only 2 points into it. It's kind of fun cycling between VO and Eruption. That's essentially how I'm playing right now. if anything survives those 2 spells, I just shred them apart with The Small Torch. Not sure how effective this playstyle will be in the long run, but it's fun so far! In fact, this has been a breath of fresh air playing a Fire Mage.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: XAos on 11 September 2018, 11:09:29
Eruption + Stone Form is a good combo. When you see a hoard of enemies rushing towards you. Cast both. At the end of 8 seconds the charging horde is ash. Your health is 100% and the recharge on Eruption is 8-seconds closer to a reset.

Only result that would be better is to reduce casting & recharge times. so you could maintain both perpetually. But that might be game breaking :D
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: Firebrand on 14 September 2018, 20:23:02
Sorry; I'm back for now, though I can't tell how long it'll last.

In a more or less random order:

Staves

In Normal Greece, Glowing Rod can turn you into an engine of destruction. +2 to Volcanic Orb when you likely only have one point in it is absolutely phenomenal and you'll see yourself one-shot entire groups with some good timing.

Pharaoh's Standard is what you want, early on. It might very well last into epic and even legendary if you don't get lucky with other drops. That thing can drop as early as Normal Egypt and it's absolutely fantastic. Recharge reduction, energy cost reduction, fire damage bonus, burn damage bonus, and a few minor things, but what else do you need? It's everything an Earth caster needs rolled into a very stylish package. If you have one, don't hesitate to give it a try!

Blastos Fotia: I've never had it drop, hard as I tried. It looks amazing until you get the late-game legendary staves. Huge fire and burn damage bonuses, bonuses to some skills, and even a casting speed bonus. The attack speed bonus seems largely wasted, however.

Eye of Osiris: I'm not entirely sure about endgame staves, really, but Eye of Osiris seems a really good candidate. Pretty good bonus to fire and burn damage, and +2 to all Earth skills means you're half-covered in your more important mastery already. The fire resistance is likely going to be redundant, but poison resistance is nice. Reduction to requirements and the other bonuses don't seem very impactful, though. On the other hand, if you're into that kind of thing, you can do a really good Eye-themed pyromancer with Eye of Osiris, Eye of Flame and Eye of Ra, all of which obviously work really well together! It might not be the most effective, but it's fun.

Goldbristle: I don't have one, so can't tell. The elemental damage bonus, recharge reduction and bonus to all skills look pretty neat, and it seems to have some decent resistances.

Heka Staff: While I'd personally probably stick to pure fire staves for thematic reasons, you're unlikely to use staff attacks at this point, and the huge recharge and energy cost reduction drives a hard bargain. No fire or burn damage bonus, though.

Staff of the Cosmos: I'm planning to revisit my Elementalist sometime, and this seems to be my staff of choice. Bonus to elemental damages, energy cost reduction, and an enormous increase in casting speed. This and Archmage's Clasp should have you pretty much covered.

Can't think of more right now.

As for Flame Surge, I agree: It's better, but it's still underwhelming. As a caster, you don't really want to be close enough to enemies for it to work. Still, if you get its recharge to zero (one of the few skills for which it is possible), you'll utterly mow down melee mobs before they'd have a chance to lay a hand on you. Still, almost all Earth casters will have better alternatives; Summoner seems to be the sole exception, and it actually synergizes well with Flame Surge with its superior durability and Briar Ward.

If you want to focus on Earth, and more specifically Volcanic Orb and Eruption, you'll probably want a supporting secondary mastery. I'd probably recommend Nature. You get more summons to distract enemies, Plague and especially Susceptibility to lower both their elemental and physical resistances to further increase the rate at which you murder them, a quasi-energy-cost-reduction in Tranquility of Water (bit ironic, though), and some other neat survivability stuff, though they're really not all that important if you ask me. Your secondary mastery's purpose should be to allow you to incinerate enemies even faster, and I think that most of the other masteries would more serve as distractions, and wouldn't be as effective at supporting your playstyle. But I could be wrong. (That said, Elementalists are still incredibly cool.)

Nerthus Armbands is pretty good, especially if you do go down the Summoner route, but I'm not sure I'd take it over Archmage's Clasp. Still, bonus skills, recharge reduction, and resistances. The casting speed bonus is pretty tiny, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: botebote77 on 18 September 2018, 04:56:52
my nephew's prophet uses a caduceus.. not for attacks but for %lightning and EBD + resists.. non-ternion staff attacks just get laughable late game.. he didn't continue ragnarok and ragnarok probably have OP staves.. the new devs are crazy

archmage's clasp is probably BiS for any mage it's just difficult to find.. I got 3 nerthus armbands by just playing through the game

anyway i just want to say that i got back to playing and started this mage summoner.. I'll make a thread of it soon.. and of course i don't use a staff
Title: Re: Earth: An Attempt at a Comprehensive Guide [Ragnarök]
Post by: icefreeze on 03 December 2018, 08:48:03
- Flame Surge, Barrage, Flame Arch: you no need get items that -%recharge to make it zero delay, if you have items that +4 all/Earth/Barrage skill(s), Flame Surgue will have no recharge/cool down time.
- Ring of Flame, Soften Metal: RoF is not worth to invest to max skill, its cost too much energy to deal that fire dmg per tick. Soften Metal can be usefull for Physical/Physical Hybrid Melee Character, by it -armor and reduced enemies's OA.
- Stone Form, Motel Rock: SF can combine with Reflecting dmg build greats.
- Core Dweller can be use like a cheese bait to lure enemies/boss come close to you, far away from their crowd, it very useful when playing in xmax, massboss on some bosses.
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