Author Topic: Flat damage scaling  (Read 585 times)

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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Flat damage scaling
« on: 13 April 2018, 09:49:40 »
Are there resources or writeups left where the subject is discussed in detail? The changelog states "damage from items" now scales with strength, dexterity, etc.

However I think there was a mess in the original game with what things scale and what things don't scale with stats and %damage, like valor of Achilles scales while peng claws do not. Seems like peng claws do not scale even now. There is more, I remember guides at the time advised against leveling marksmanship above 1 initial point for some reason. Maybe it was just that kind of flat damage that didn't scale, but now it does not give any damage at all. Investing into skill does not change dps tooltip. Thats with throwing weapons btw, maybe I need to test a bow too.

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #1 on: 13 April 2018, 10:19:12 »
Marksmanship does give damage, but it's piercing only. For a piercing build this might make it worthwhile, since even if it doesn't scale, the many +% pierce bonusses and items a piercing build would be going for do increase its effectiveness. Piercing damage in general has become more significant with the AE, as the influence of dexterity relative to that of strength has increased.

Elemental or poison bow users should stay well away from Marksmanship beyond one point if you ask me though. Marksmanship mostly seems to increase projectile speed, but that has no real effect, other than remvong the need to lead targets. That might be usefull in itself, but it is something that can easily be compensated for with player skill, and doesn't warrant sinking another eleven points into.

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #2 on: 13 April 2018, 10:35:22 »
Marksmanship tooltip states "4 piercing damage, 30% increase in projectile speed", "8 piercing damage, 40% increase in proj speed" etc. The flat piercing damage is not there. Took the bow for test and 2 points at the mystic and its the same, putting points into the skill does not change the average damage and dps values on the character screen.

Edit: Or is it just me being an idiot and these numbers are for normal attacks, not lmb? Looks like I'm too used to better options like in more modern games
« Last Edit: 13 April 2018, 10:46:41 by mammoth_hunter »

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #3 on: 13 April 2018, 11:14:09 »
Edit: Or is it just me being an idiot and these numbers are for normal attacks, not lmb?

Don't want to call you an idiot, but,.. yeah,..  ;D

Crate fixed it in Grim Dawn.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #4 on: 13 April 2018, 11:21:27 »
over the years, I've learned to not trust DPS.. even in other games like this.. if i do good damage by eye, i take it I'm doing fine
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #5 on: 13 April 2018, 11:51:50 »
I wanted to stay away from things like hex editing but apparently there are no other options  :( , so I did this and checked again with the dummies near the tower of Judgement trader.

The difference between rank 5 marksmanship and rank 15 one is nonexistant though it is supposed to add more that 50 flat pierce. The difference between having blood gem relic equipped and not having it is very notable for comparison, blood gem has 40 flat pierce. And the conclusion is that marksmanship in TQAE/R does not scale with stats and %pierce. It is lowest priority for putting points into. Maybe this is generic for all skills flat damage.

Offline botebote77

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #6 on: 13 April 2018, 12:09:16 »
it is also worth noting that dummies are devices and therefore highly resistant to pierce.. and blood gem also gives 10% pierce and +1 to hunting.. but i haven't done any tests

edit: but max magical charge compared to none is very noticeable
« Last Edit: 13 April 2018, 12:13:02 by botebote77 »
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #7 on: 13 April 2018, 12:43:11 »
found a piece of info that might explain this

"Piercing damage does critical damage when you've scored a critical hit. The actual floating numbers (if you enabled them in options) only show your physical critical damage, but the pierce damage is multiplied too."

so it doesn't show the flat pierce from marksmanship because it only shows the physical crit

source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=148217054

under pierce damage
« Last Edit: 13 April 2018, 12:45:13 by botebote77 »
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #8 on: 13 April 2018, 13:16:34 »
I've now tested it with a copper knife and a glacial ring and it does not understand cold damage either. As well as conversion to elemental in rune mastery. So its not like the old defiler in the slightest.

Damn, this game is about numbers, displaying damage is like a core ARPGs functionality, not providing it in the base game is  >:(  >:(  >:(

Offline botebote77

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #9 on: 13 April 2018, 13:27:40 »
it will not show cold because elem doesn't crit.. floating damage only shows crits.. and according to the link, only physical crits
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Offline Laionidas

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #10 on: 13 April 2018, 14:41:17 »
I've now tested it with a copper knife and a glacial ring and it does not understand cold damage either. As well as conversion to elemental in rune mastery. So its not like the old defiler in the slightest.

Damn, this game is about numbers, displaying damage is like a core ARPGs functionality, not providing it in the base game is  >:(  >:(  >:(

The base game is 12 years old.

It was released years before Diablo III, Path of Exile, Van Helsing, Torchlight, Sacred 2, Grim Dawn, or any other modern ARPG. There might have been games before that did feature detailed numbers, but those games also tended to drown the player in numbers. Priorities were different for Titan Quest, which is the reason it is still so much fun, and still looks so good 12 years later.

Offline Firebrand

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #11 on: 15 April 2018, 00:45:44 »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually I'm fairly certain about this.

As far as I know, the DPS rating on the character screen doesn't take skills into account, including LMB skills. Just as putting points into Onslaught wouldn't increase your DPS, nor would Marksmanship.

There's an important exception: buffs. Onslaught will increase your displayed DPS if you use it, as it puts a buff on you, which increases your physical damage (also I haven't tested this, but I assume that it increases all physical damage you deal, including things like War Wind, but possibly even things like Volcanic Orb or Eruption - I simply speculate this based on how it states that it increases physical damage you deal, but doesn't imply any restrictions on it).

Marksmanship, on the other hand, applies no buff to the player; it only modifies the attack itself. You won't see any change in the DPS, no matter whether you use it or not.

Edit: Increasing projectile speed has another, possibly much more important effect, at least for bows and thrown weapons: it increases range. I never noticed it before, and bows have a pretty tremendous range on their own, but thrown weapons benefit a lot from it. After I stopped playing my Dragon Hunter (at least temporarily) and went back to my Stonespeaker, I noticed how much closer I needed to be to enemies to actually deal damage to them.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2018, 00:50:45 by Firebrand »

Offline Laionidas

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #12 on: 15 April 2018, 10:44:34 »
Edit: Increasing projectile speed has another, possibly much more important effect, at least for bows and thrown weapons: it increases range. I never noticed it before, and bows have a pretty tremendous range on their own, but thrown weapons benefit a lot from it. After I stopped playing my Dragon Hunter (at least temporarily) and went back to my Stonespeaker, I noticed how much closer I needed to be to enemies to actually deal damage to them.

Dang, I'll have to try it out then. It would make Marksmanship 10 times better since more range also equals more damage through Piercing Shot.

Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Flat damage scaling
« Reply #13 on: 15 April 2018, 12:17:15 »
Increasing projectile speed has another, possibly much more important effect, at least for bows and thrown weapons: it increases range. I never noticed it before, and bows have a pretty tremendous range on their own, but thrown weapons benefit a lot from it. After I stopped playing my Dragon Hunter (at least temporarily) and went back to my Stonespeaker, I noticed how much closer I needed to be to enemies to actually deal damage to them.
I can test it immediately by unequipping two rings to drop proj speed by 100%. And nope, nothing happens with the range. Points in marksmanship do not change it either. Unless the range is longer than animation. But it isn't: I've seen for over 1000 times now these projectiles not hitting the target because they stop right before it.

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