Author Topic: The Theory of Hybrid  (Read 2016 times)

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Offline botebote77

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The Theory of Hybrid
« on: 15 March 2018, 11:17:37 »
(title in honor of the late Stephen Hawking)

Yes, it's taken from The Theory of Everything. In TQ, Everything could mean strength, dexterity and intelligence. And if you have all 3, you have a hybrid. duhhh  ???

Hybrids are complicated, just like Stephen Hawking. Complicated enough that i don't feel I'm good enough to write a definitive guide about it. Instead, I'm hoping this thread turns out to be a discussion about hybrids.

So what is classified as a hybrid? The simple meaning in gaming is a mix of 2 completely different builds . And yes, the meaning just came from me so anyone is allowed to dispute it. Because it's a mix of 2 different builds, i personally think for a build to be classified a hybrid, it has to meet the following requirements:

1) must have a good amount of strength, dexterity, and intelligence

2) must deal a good amount of physical damage as well as elemental or vitality damage

Are those requirements fair enough? I hope so. Thus, a pure int or a mostly int transmutation rune build is not a hybrid for me. It's a fake hybrid. I'm not saying it's weaker. I'm not saying it's cheating (heck no). But you didn't go the hard way so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of being a hybrid? I really hope many people chime in on this. As i said i don't feel I'm worthy enough to write everything about hybrids. Not that i haven't played a successful hybrid before but i just feel that hybrids are complicated enough that any combination can benefit from being a hybrid. Ok, maybe a conqueror can't deal elemental damage. And maybe it benefits most by ignoring int. But frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if someone pro comes out and proves otherwise. Yeah that's what i mean, complicated. But I'll start anyway.

Advantages:

• Able to wear just about anything

• Because it deals different types of damage, it benefits greatly from %total damage

• You don't have to be squishy because you can wear strength based gear including shields

• You won't have a damage dealing weakness against any type of enemy because you deal different types of damage. I mean you can deal good damage against undeads, beastmen, water nymphs, everything.

Disadvantages:

• Not recommended for beginners

• Not recommended for self-found characters

• Can be gear dependent because you might have to wear stat enhancing gears or requirement reduction gears.

• You can't concentrate on a certain type of damage

Personally, i build my hybrids by going either str/dex first or int/dex first. Not a lot of dex, just enough to meet requirements. Then after i get my strength to about 400, i wear strength enhancing gear like robust ring of something, Symbol of the Polymath, etc. If i start int/dex first, i stop at about 350 int and wear int enhancing gear like Socrates' ring, Plato's ring, etc. From there, i start putting points in strength and gradually go full hybrid. Requirement Reduction gears also help like Odysseus' Armor, Rhesus' Whitewashed Armor, etc. The new XP scaling also helps.

Hybrids are not easy but certainly doable. It might be difficult at first but when your hybrid finally takes shape, it can be very rewarding. Rewarding because you've done something complicated. And also because... heck the wide item selection is huge. If you have items in your TQvault already, your character can really become an all-rounder. High armor? high resists? +4 all skills? high CDR? With hybrid, getting all of those is possible. But to have those, you have to have the necessary gear and you have to be well versed in the game to make the necessary planning.

Building a hybrid can be tricky. One can say a hybrid is a jack of all trades but a master of none. Good at everything but excelling in nothing. All things considered though, a hybrid is perhaps the most balanced build in the game. But because it's the most balanced, it's either the safest build to make or the riskiest build to make.

So what do you think about hybrids? Do you think it's a nerf or do you think more people should try it? Do you think it's easy enough and I'm just making it sound complicated? :) Share your opinions/experiences here

ps: thanks Typhon for indirectly giving me an idea for a title
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline CrocMagnum

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #1 on: 15 March 2018, 19:04:12 »
(Wish I posted earlier but I had a very long day, so I'll try to be not too wordy^^)

Hybrid by definition is a crossing between two species, basically you merge several elements that do not go together naturally. The result of this "hybridation" is supposed to show the traits of both parents. Sometimes Hybrids show better qualities than their parents, but in video-games it rarely works like that. :)

Hybrids in video-games have much more options up their sleeve. But generally there’s a heavy price to pay: you can hardly be the best at what you do. But you can do most things decently.

Then in Titan Quest Stat Distribution for Hybrids can indeed be a headache too (just try to build a Hybrid version of a Sage or an Avenger and you’ll get the idea),

I think to understand Hybrids maybe we should talk about the opposite, classes dedicated to a single purpose, a pure DPS character for instance:

Salvador in Borderlands 2

To put it short Salvador has a few Skills which truly make him a DPS-Monster:

Auto-Loader: Killing an enemy instantly reloads all your guns,
Inconceivable: % chance per level for shots not to consume ammo,
5 Shots or 6: % chance per level to add an extra round of ammunition when firing,
Filled to the Brim: +magazine and ammunition capacity in %,


If you add that Gunzerking, the Action Skill of Salvador, allows him to temporarily Dual Wield Weapons and Regen ammo, and that some Class Mods (inventory items) allow him to Regen Ammo too, then you can clearly see he's the ultimate DPS character of Borderlands 2 (and the Franchise even^^). Serioulsy from that standpoint, Salavador in insanly powerful.

Where I’m I heading with this? Well Salavador in a pure DPS kind-of-guy, his cookie-cutter build plays itself: you enter an area, activate your Action Skill –Gunzerking- and watch everybody fall. It’s really fun but personally it’s gets boring really fast. I’m not a DPS-gamer, I truly enjoy Hybrid builds because they give me much more options, and much more fun actually.

Finally you think doing different types of Damage is a Hybrid thing? I don't think so. But if yes then the Dreamkiller is a true Hybrid by your definition:

Dreamkiller is in my top 5 in Titan Quest because of the various types of damage he can inflict to enemies:

- Poison / Piercing / Bleeding / Electrical burn Damage / +Damage to Demons / +Damage to Constructs and Devices

Dreamkillers are super fun to play, they even have a Familiar (and I’m not even talking about traps. :P) You have the best of both worlds, so that's a Hybrid...maybe.
« Last Edit: 15 March 2018, 19:12:26 by CrocMagnum »

Offline Laionidas

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #2 on: 15 March 2018, 21:39:26 »
Hybrids are complicated, just like Stephen Hawking.

Hybrids die, just like Stephen Hawking.  :-\

Spoiler for Hiden:
Quote
Ok, sorry, really couldn't resist :P

I personally think for a build to be classified a hybrid, it has to meet the following requirements:

1) must have a good amount of strength, dexterity, and intelligence

2) must deal a good amount of physical damage as well as elemental or vitality damage

That's very limiting. For me, a basic hybrid would be a melee or ranged-weapon character that does mostly caster damage. It doesn't necessarily have to do different damage type. A melee Stonespeaker, for me would be very much classified as a hybrid character. Statwise, having two out of three is also enough. A bow build with just dexterity and a lot of intelligence, I would also consider to be a hybrid.

True hybrids, that do combine physical or piercing with elemental damage, just aren't very viable in my experience, because of the reasons stated below.

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of being a hybrid?
Advantages:

• Able to wear just about anything

• Because it deals different types of damage, it benefits greatly from %total damage

Disadvantages:

• You can't concentrate on a certain type of damage

This I find to be rather problematic. Because you can't focus on a certain damage type, going for more than two damage types usually results in lower net DPS output than single or supplemental-dual damage types builds. The exception is elemental builds which use different types of damage, but all elemental.

Regarding the "ability to wear anything", I'll have to downright disagree with you. Because you're splitting up your statpoint investment and gear selection, hybrid characters tend to not meet the requirements to equip end-game gear of more than one type. In fact, more often then not, they end up not being able to equip end-game gear of any time, and have to be content with using lower tier (though more versatile) items.

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #3 on: 16 March 2018, 03:24:39 »
CrocMagnum bud, i wish i know what you are saying but i don't.. i don't play borderlands :/

incidentally, i have a hybrid dreamkiller.. but it depends on how you build a dreamkiller.. if you ignore int and the caster part of dream, then it's not a hybrid imo.. mine takes str/dex/int.. left click is distortion wave, right click is throwing knife, mastermind boosts traps.. strength to boost the physical damage of distortion wave and to wear shields

regarding different types of damage, probably you're both right.. it's just that i think dealing different types of damage is beneficial for a hybrid to take advantage of the different stats you take.. but necessary, probably not

Laionidas, most builds take two out of three stats.. if 2 out of 3 is a hybrid, then 90% of builds are hybrids.. and again you didn't take the hard way :p

Regarding the "ability to wear anything", I'll have to downright disagree with you. Because you're splitting up your statpoint investment and gear selection, hybrid characters tend to not meet the requirements to equip end-game gear of more than one type. In fact, more often then not, they end up not being able to equip end-game gear of any time, and have to be content with using lower tier (though more versatile) items.
sorry that simply isn't true
Spoiler for Hiden:

symbol of the polymath gives 15% int/str/dex.. i can up my dex more but i don't see it necessary.. i already have 1400 DA
Spoiler for Hiden:
another hybrid:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Odysseus armor is the key item here (-30% requirements)
it's twinked and i have the advantage of having good items but that's part of what makes it complicated ☮️
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline tholuneve

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #4 on: 16 March 2018, 03:44:35 »
Hmm, if that's your defination of "hybrid", I guess all I have tried or thought about are "fake hybrid" builds. They may use hybrid armor pieces, have more str/int/dex than "pure" builds, but in the end, all of these builds seek to maximize one attribute point.

You have mentioned the benefits of hybrid, but IMO the actual disadvantage is within the advantage itself.

• You won't have a damage dealing weakness against any type of enemy because you deal different types of damage. I mean you can deal good damage against undeads, beastmen, water nymphs, everything.

The problem is, the "main" type of damage in this game, physical (along with converted pierce damage) and elemental, does not really need another supplementary damage type. They can kill almost all monsters, and the modifiers to them are very easy to find. On the other hand, the "supplementary" damage type, which includes vitality, bleeding, poison etc, each of these damage type have something that they cannot kill; and it's not that easy to find modifiers. So here comes the question: why bother go hybrid if I can kill everything with one damage type? Well yeah the answer can always be: it's fun. Personally I want fun, but I also want my toon to be strong, which sadly end up with no hybrid everytime. In addition, for those possible physical + elemental hybrid classes, with Ragnarok dlc you can convert everything into elemental even without Rune Mastery, and they become "fake hybrid" builds.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Now screw what I just said above. I guess I actually find a possibly real good hybrid build: poison + elemental Trickster, d-w Gorgon's Edge and Winds of Asphodel. Honestly I have not tested it myself, I'll just express how it might work. Gorgon's Edge provides base poison damage, Winds of Asphodel provides resistance reduction at the same time, Thunder Strike provides huge % total damage along with Rune Weapon. The whole idea is enlightened by a poison damage Dreamkiller thread (I can't remember where I found it), which utilize the huge % total damage of Phantom Strike to enhance poison damage. The reason to be a Trickster instead of Dreamkiller may include:
You are ranged.
Gorgon's Edge has highest base poison damage in game.
Phantom Strike has higher % total damage but Thunder Strike has much shorter cooldown.
Phantom Strike cannot reduce resistances at the same time, even the effect of Trance of Wrath is not on par with Winds of Asphodel. Note this does not only benefit poison damage, it also benefit the elemental damage from Rune Mastery.
When both skills are in cooldown, Rune Weapon is more reliable than Psionic Touch.
So...how's your thoughts? O0

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #5 on: 16 March 2018, 05:12:45 »
my hybrids are strong and fun   8)

i had an ice shard paladin years ago from TQIT.. it wears a shield of course but i also needed mage gear.. i think i also put points on armor handling.. i wasn't able to finish it but only because it was just time to put down TQ.. not because it was weak

my skinchanger, i don't have transmutation (i want that +90% physical from SotP).. and it's more of a petmaster (permanent guardian stones).. it's also not always melee as i regularly switch to dual throwing (secondary).. but i admit it's only fun in xmax.. it could be because i don't enjoy pet heavy builds.. at least in xmax i get to see some action.. i primarily play at xmax x3

my haruspex it was centuries ago since i last played it.. i don't remember the feeling

your hybrid trickster idea, i don't have either weapons yet so i need more time of imagining.. but gorgon's edge with envenom weapon + %total damage is oomph.. undeads wouldn't be a problem with rune weapon.. and against constructs you have disarm traps.. me i really want to try guardian stones + traps but i don't know if you'll have enough skill points for that
« Last Edit: 16 March 2018, 05:16:43 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #6 on: 17 March 2018, 06:01:42 »
tholuneve, i just looked at tq-db for gorgon's edge and winds of asphodel.. i just remember that gorgon's edge gives huge poison but i didn't know it also gives 20% reduced resist as well as a slew of CCs.. and winds of asphodel...50 flat reduced resist? 25% reduced damage? damn are you kidding me? you're right that these 2 would go together.. sometimes i think some of these throwing weapons are OP.. sigh i have to play more again i'm getting behind on all these new items
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline gasconron

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #7 on: 20 March 2018, 15:44:11 »
@botebote77 - as per your request, there's my current Thane. Equipment is as follows:

Terisias's Guide
Thundering Sabretooth of Storms - Zeus's Thunderbolt
Arctic Sabretooth of Rime - Chill of Tartarus
(2x) Socrates Ring of Immortality - Monkey Tricks
Necklace of Harmonia
Impenetrable SBC of Gryphon - Hydradon Hide
Tunic of the Magi
Leggings of the Defiled - Blacksmith Quest Bonus (Weightless, Grace)
Glorybringer

  • -% reqs was abused to get STR to as low as possible
  • INT will cap at ~800 (breakpoint), DEX will be dump stat for DA/OA boost
  • I consider this possibly a true Hybrid being that it sacrificed its main stat (INT) to be able to equip other stat specific items, and at the same time, it's a mage masquerading as a dual-wield melee dependent on elemental damage
« Last Edit: 20 March 2018, 15:50:33 by gasconron »

Offline Laionidas

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #8 on: 20 March 2018, 17:52:06 »
@botebote77 - as per your request, there's my current Thane. Equipment is as follows:

  • -% reqs was abused to get STR to as low as possible

Which brings us back to the discussion botebote77 and I had earlier: if you're building a dual-wielding hybrid and want to abuse -% reqs to get STR as low as possible, you could consider swapping Warfare for Rune.

Reckless Offense allows you to dual wield. Your melee capabilities are somewhat less, but this is made up for by far superior elemental conversion on Transmutation, and Runeword: Feather grants you a whopping -42% STR req for weapons at a mere 6 points investment.

Offline gasconron

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #9 on: 20 March 2018, 18:16:24 »
@Laionidas - you're correct, thus I ranted on specifically this on a separate thread:
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=133.msg837#msg837

The introduction of Rune Mastery to the game really changed how to approach building a Mage melee/dual wield/range hybrid. You can even go as far to say as it broke all of the conventional approaches to building hybrid since it's inherent Skill Kit makes it so much easier to build one rather than being reliant on specific equipment, you normally have to spread yourself thin (attribute points), to optimize.

But hey I'm a stubborn guy and I prefer the old way, having played it as such for the past 10+ years. With Rune Mastery, if I ever play it in the future, I will be limiting it's Hybrid capabilities to throwing weapons rather than melee or bows. 

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #10 on: 20 March 2018, 19:11:10 »
gasconron, yes that is a true hybrid.. if you cover the 2 weapons, you could mistake it for a pure mage.. but nope it's a dual wield melee.. i see we like the same items but we differ in stat distribution.. i wouldn't be so daring going dual wield on a low armor toon.. i bet you need lots of player skill (not character skill but your own skill as a gamer) just to survive

Laionidas, yes you're correct but i call it fake hybrid.. you took the easy way out :P ..  I'm also old school :P :P :P
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline gasconron

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #11 on: 20 March 2018, 19:42:19 »
i wouldn't be so daring going dual wield on a low armor toon.. i bet you need lots of player skill (not character skill but your own skill as a gamer) just to survive

Not so much skill, though familiarity with the game plays a big part in it.

At 1000-1200 DA, no physical dmg melee will be hitting at crit levels except Legendary Minotaurs, possibly Leg Poly/Goldtooth and Toxeus, even if you have low armor on. Even if they are a threat, Squall's reduce damage debuff combo'd with Battle Standard's reduce damage aura + any -% damage from x creature gear is enough to get you by with that kind of DA.

DA has always been more impactful to melee performance than armor, in my opinion. You'll get by playing any melee toon with barely any armor, but with decent DA than a lot of armor with no DA. I recently did this with an armor Juggernaut. I did complete xmax HC pre-AE with relatively low DA before (700-850 DA), but when I re-ran it on AE, life spike dips were happening too frequently that I had to respec (sacrificing armor for DA). 

This leaves ranged damage to be a problem, as some high damage ranged have physical damage mixed in them especially in Act 5, but that's what Squall is for.

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #12 on: 20 March 2018, 19:58:39 »
hmm right.. battle standard + squall.. but how about battle mage? you spread points on stone skin, heat shield, stone form, ring of flame? I'd much rather do that than sacrifice too many points on core dweller
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline gasconron

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #13 on: 21 March 2018, 03:04:40 »
pretty much, and tbh it will probably suffice in vanilla gameplay.

xmax HC is a different matter, you'll need CD definitely to control agro.
keeping half the screen off you even for a couple of seconds will determine whether you get overwhelmed or not.
in my pre-AE run i remember stacking on arrowdancers and unbroken fortitude to supplement gameplay.
there were also instances when I used Marduks as well

unlike building a Sage vs. Avenger, where in Hunting Mastery actually carries the success of the 2 classes, INT melee hybrid Thane vs. Battlemage are carried by how much utility they can get from Storm/Earth. While some earth buffs and actives are definitely useful for melee gameplay, it can't come close to Squall and Spellbreaker in terms of utility, the disables and damage reduction it offers outweighs any bonuses Earth passives can give.

Offline botebote77

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Re: The Theory of Hybrid
« Reply #14 on: 21 March 2018, 09:05:53 »
I did complete xmax HC pre-AE with relatively low DA before (700-850 DA), but when I re-ran it on AE, life spike dips were happening too frequently that I had to respec (sacrificing armor for DA). 
so you agree that DA isn't the same as it once was right? i rarely play melee anymore and i largely rely on CC so i can't assess it that much but i did play 2 melees before both with 1k+ DA.. i feel i get hit much harder compared to pre-AE
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

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