Adrenaline skill - question about cooldown (+ false info in conqueror guide)

[hansuswurstus]

Hey all,

so I have another question about cooldown mechanics, similar to my old question.

When does the cooldown time from Adrenaline (Defense Mastery) actually start? It seems like the cooldown only starts as soon as the skill stopped but I may be wrong. So which one of these examples is right?

Example 1: Adrenaline triggers (15,5 seconds duration) --> Adrenaline wears off after 15,5 seconds --> cooldown (7,2 seconds) starts --> after 7,2 seconds Adrenaline can proc again

Example 2: Adrenaline triggers + cooldown starts simultaneously --> this would mean that you can effectively have Adrenaline up permanently. I tested it and it didn't work.


Now my next question refers to Cassidy's Conqueror Guide. There, it says:

Resiliance – 6 points (max). There are those who view this skill as cheap and those who view it as an awesome and essential part of the conquerers arsenal. I’m a member of the latter group. It gives a significant reduction to *all* recharge times, allowing adrenaline to trigger sooner and your charge and other abilities to be used more often.

This is wrong. I tested it and the cooldown reduction only applies to Adrenaline, not to all the other skills (would be pretty crazy if that would be the case). So why does the guide say that? Was it like that in the past and it was fixed?

Thanks in advance for your help!

EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:

Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?

[lixiss]

EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:

Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?

For first, there is no hidden cooldowns. There is just no mechanics for that. Adrenaline skill has 30.0 skill cooldown (skill recharge), and game say this.

Second, for skills with class Skill_PassiveOnHitBuffSelf (like Adrenaline) - yes - cooldown starts AFTER skill's duration finished. So it will run 15.5 seconds, and then 10.8 seconds cooldown. Or with 1 point in skill - it will run 10 seconds and 30 seconds cooldown. (And surely -% recharge affect only on this skill, don't remember how it was in old days.)

For player-triggered skills - cooldown started in the moment of skill activation, it is easily to see. Yes, as always, there is not very user-friendly because there is unclear and quite important difference.

Battle Rage - uses absolutely same mechanics as Adrenaline, so it is 10 seconds of buff duration and only then 12 seconds of recharge. ADD: [It already quite powerful, but if it was only 2 second window of inactivity - then it easily can be counted as semi-permanent even without modifiers. Luckily it is somehow-balanced by adding "resting" window to 12 seconds]

[hansuswurstus]

EDIT: I think I found an answer to the first question in Xaece's Defender Guide:

Adrenaline has a hidden recast timer of 30 seconds. The 1st modifier to Adrenaline, Resilience, is an absolute must. At level 6 Resilience, Adrenaline’s cooldown drops down to 10.8 seconds.

Where can you find these hidden cooldown recast timers though? For example, what is the hidden recast timer for battle rage?

For first, there is no hidden cooldowns. There is just no mechanics for that. Adrenaline skill has 30.0 skill cooldown (skill recharge), and game say this.

Second, for skills with class Skill_PassiveOnHitBuffSelf (like Adrenaline) - yes - cooldown starts AFTER skill's duration finished. So it will run 15.5 seconds, and then 10.8 seconds cooldown. Or with 1 point in skill - it will run 10 seconds and 30 seconds cooldown. (And surely -% recharge affect only on this skill, don't remember how it was in old days.)

For player-triggered skills - cooldown started in the moment of skill activation, it is easily to see. Yes, as always, there is not very user-friendly because there is unclear and quite important difference.

Battle Rage - uses absolutely same mechanics as Adrenaline, so it is 10 seconds of buff duration and only then 12 seconds of recharge. ADD: [It already quite powerful, but if it was only 2 second window of inactivity - then it easily can be counted as semi-permanent even without modifiers. Luckily it is somehow-balanced by adding "resting" window to 12 seconds]

Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

[lixiss]

Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%.

[soa]

Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%.

The thing is that the value stays the same when you change the game speed.
Is 63,3% for one second in Normal Speed ? Do you count real seconds or ingame seconds ? (ie when a cooldown is 25s, it's ingame seconds, the time in real seconds depends on game speed).

[lixiss]

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%.

The thing is that the value stays the same when you change the game speed.
Is 63,3% for one second in Normal Speed ? Do you count real seconds or ingame seconds ? (ie when a cooldown is 25s, it's ingame seconds, the time in real seconds depends on game speed).

I'm use normal speed in game, in-game skill seconds (cool down duration for example) matches to second ticks of my clocks... and character swing almost twice at 100% (and twice at ~120).

PS: Generally about 63.3% is somewhat what should be somehow tied to animations I guess, but how they exactly connected i'm doesn't know, and doesn't found fundamental differences in animations, they all has 25 frames, all has same frame rate. To be fair, there is 63.3333362 for axe, mace, spear, sword, bow, shield, then 65.3125031 for staff, and 57.0000006 for throwing axes, let's call it basePercentage. Then if we want calculate real weapon speed from weapon's base attack speed, then we should do: basePercentage * (1 + weaponBaseAttackSpeed / characterAttackSpeed)  (characterAttackSpeed is 0.74 defined in male/femalepc01). So, 63.3333362 * (1 + 0.5 / 0.74) = 106.126131 (for knife), and this is should be exact attack speed number which is used in DPS calculation (however UI will never show fraction part for attack speed, it rounded before).

ADD: And from my understanding satyr soldier has 0.65 character attack speed and should have 112% attack speed with knife (without attack speed modifiers which unmodified game has), however i'm never test this.

[hansuswurstus]

Thank you so much, this make so much sense now. Someone told me that cooldown on passive skills activates right after it has been triggered and that confused me. Your post confirms my testing.

Another funny fact: game show us DPS, right? But this is not damage per second, it is relative damage to 100% attack speed (in practice average damage * attack speed %), because, character do one attack per second at about 63.3% attack speed, and almost 2 attacks at 100%.

How do I know if I have the best weapon equipped? As a Conqueror, should I focus on physical damage or attack speed? What are the most important values when deciding which equipment to use? I noticed I get hight DPS when I equip items with + attack speed, + overall speed and +damage. This game can be really complicated, lol

[lixiss]

How do I know if I have the best weapon equipped? As a Conqueror, should I focus on physical damage or attack speed? What are the most important values when deciding which equipment to use? I noticed I get hight DPS when I equip items with + attack speed, + overall speed and +damage. This game can be really complicated, lol

I'm generally refer to minor inconsistency in naming... nothing more.

As for Conqueror, i'm never play it, only used defense/warfare+something combos.

Highest DPS not necessary mean highest efficiency, it is generally just some kind of estimation without taking into account actual monster's armor or resistances. There is no universal equation which will answer what is best. In some cases one weapons better, in some - other. Too slow attack speed is not very good, because reaction on battlefield becomes slower, however is not a bad per se, and generally is kind of preference. Again, defense mastery gives at least something special for maces. I'm love swords, but not always use them. However there is no-brainer choice, if you keep same damage while attack faster - it is better.

On other hand, if you focus purely on physical damage - then your attacks should always overcome monster's armor, because armor - is kind of flat damage reduction, which can reduce incoming physical damage up to 0. So if you pick weapons which work at 222% attack speed AND their damage near armor value - it will be 100x worse, than strike them at 50% attack speed with physical damage 2-4x times bigger than their armor, because in last case you will do actual damage, while in first case - you will basically only scratch them until next day and next night. Physical damage + Armor's damage reduction is unique in that sense, because rest of damage types reduced only by resistances (by percentage). Final choice is on you, to take some comfortable weapon which work. (However to be fair, both masteries gives armor reduction, so there is not so dramatical how I'm saying.)

Again, skills is not bad early damage source (and generally crazily OP if speak about Normal and taking into account at which level you can get them): Batter 12/12 - gives flat 75 physical damage bonus, 12/12 battle rage adds 84. Let's compare 75 value with... some top-tier common-quality weapons will do about 200 damage on average. See? Conquer can deal massive bursts of damage with almost just knife (and shield) and just from level 5 (even not constantly, but... it is better get proc and get +80 damage, than constantly do 10-20 damage). So, actual weapon of choice will not matter for relatively long time. (Again, all depends which's your current level.) (Surely there is not necessary to put all points into this skills, i'm just show their power compared to weapons.) Later - weapon choice matter even less, because you eventually will have at least half of this skills or other skills which you like + other bonuses + natural bonuses (like strength), so everything what doesn't looks like staff - generally might work. However, good Conqueror should be able smash heads with staff too... or staves too fragile for this purpose? 

[hansuswurstus]

lol thanks for the detailed answer, knowing those little details is very helpful.  I am happy there is still so much love for this game and I definitely don't regret coming back to TQ. 

[icefreeze]

- I think i answered this question in the similar thread on forum already?
- Adrenaline skill start cooldowns right after skill procs, because i get alot Adrenaline's procs right after previous Adrenaline runs out of time from my game.
- Physical dmg from weapon's base dmg using different dmg formula vs Physical dmg from items' bonus or skills.
- DPS is fit with game time count, not real life time count. DPS still have good value enough to refer in many case for any builds relying on weapon attacks builds.

[hansuswurstus]

- I think i answered this question in the similar thread on forum already?
- Adrenaline skill start cooldowns right after skill procs, because i get alot Adrenaline's procs right after previous Adrenaline runs out of time from my game.

Hey icefreeze,

this is exactly what was confusing me because you are basically saying the opposite of what lixiss said. I also tested Adrenaline and Battle Rage and it always procced some seconds after it had worn off. Maybe you are playing on very high game speed like me and it just feels like it proccs right after it has worn off? Also, if it would start cooldown right after usage, you would pretty much be able to keep it up permanently (which isn't the case as we both obvserved). Because of all this I am pretty sure it is like lixiss said and the cooldown starts after proc ends.

[icefreeze]

@hansuswurstus Oh, talk about "feels", why don't you think that your feeling may wrong first but people?
Does this good enough to prove what i said:

I think i will not answer your questions anymore 

[hansuswurstus]

@icefreeze thank you for the video. No reason to get angry though, I just said what I observed from my testing.

@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

I don't care about who is wrong and right, I just want to understand this. Thanks!

[lixiss]

@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

There is madness on icefreeze's video, and there is hard to say what is happens at all... at least without access to equipment it is impossible to say what happens, might be some item has proc to recharge? Icefreeze's character already has 6.0 seconds cooldown without resilience. At the end of video skill get activated after about 6 seconds, but first time, yep it reactivated almost immediately.


The way which it can be more or less EXACTLY tested, is taking all gear / skills and making simple mod:

1. Turn Adrenaline skill to player-activated skill buff. (To make this skill selectable only).
2. Put this skill on skill bar.
3. *Revert changes back.*
4. Now on skill bar you will have icon, which will reflect when cooldown starts.

[hansuswurstus]

@lixiss how is this possible? I am really confused now once again. icefreezes video basically proves that cooldown starts immediately after proc?!

There is madness on icefreeze's video, and there is hard to say what is happens at all... at least without access to equipment it is impossible to say what happens, might be some item has proc to recharge? Icefreeze's character already has 6.0 seconds cooldown without resilience. At the end of video skill get activated after about 6 seconds, but first time, yep it reactivated almost immediately.


The way which it can be more or less EXACTLY tested, is taking all gear / skills and making simple mod:

1. Turn Adrenaline skill to player-activated skill buff. (To make this skill selectable only).
2. Put this skill on skill bar.
3. *Revert changes back.*
4. Now on skill bar you will have icon, which will reflect when cooldown starts.

Hey lixiss,

yeah, I noticed too that at the end of the video, the skill didn't activate immediately anymore. Very confusing. I tested it myself with Battle Rage and Adrenaline and it always activated again after the same amount of seconds which implied there is indeed a cooldown.

How do you make Adrenaline an active skill? I have no experience with modding and I would really like to see this tested.