Author Topic: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?  (Read 4022 times)

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Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #15 on: 06 June 2018, 16:22:50 »
It looks like this build type will always remain as an utopia, at least in my mind it will..

But I really would like to get some detailed info about this "rune-rogue" approach before throwing away all the hope.. Is it still under theorotical crafting? :)

Offline botebote77

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #16 on: 09 June 2018, 07:05:16 »
@botebote77 is there a resource/database that list monster/boss stats and resists updated for ragnarok? i'd like to make my own calculations on testing instead of just guess-timating all the time.
for some reason i did not receive an email notification of this mention

but nope sorry.. don't know these kinds of things.. maybe @Vio or @koderkrazy knows
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline koderkrazy

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #17 on: 10 June 2018, 04:31:19 »
@botebote77 is there a resource/database that list monster/boss stats and resists updated for ragnarok? i'd like to make my own calculations on testing instead of just guess-timating all the time.
for some reason i did not receive an email notification of this mention

but nope sorry.. don't know these kinds of things.. maybe @Vio or @koderkrazy knows

Since Hector's is unhappy with undead here are the stats from database for infamous undead Toxeus:
Spoiler for Hiden:
But these are raw stats in database, and not actual which you get when you face the monster.

As per my knowledge, following modifiers gets applied before you see the actual monster in game:
1) Monster difficulty level gets applied basted on specific area in the act where the monster was spawned.
For this look for proxy pool tables for each area. Xmax mod modifies these tables to make more monsters   :P
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
3) Finally they randomize numbers by some percentage. So even if you face same monster at same place, same level he'll have different health(energy, dex, str etc) each time. But I don't know if they randomize resistances or not.

I can give you list of all stats(which are there in 1.56 database.arz) for every monster in a single csv text file. Csv could be imported in Excel to analyze.

If someone help me with actual calculations like how they multiply difficulty level to raw stats, I'll generate final stats for all creatures in the game.
« Last Edit: 11 June 2018, 10:39:13 by koderkrazy »

Offline Hector

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #18 on: 10 June 2018, 23:48:43 »
koderkrazy, thank you so much for this informative post.. So this shows us that the SOB has not only 70% absorb, but also an additional 50% resistance under his belt..great O:-)

Speaking of difficulty change based on player level, this sounds rather interesting.. I haven't spotted any spike on their difficulty when killing them with over-leveled chars. I mean by this logic, an epic/legendary char facing against normal toxeus should still expect some challenge, doesn't he?.. Maybe its too little that we don't notice it?..

Can you provide some detailed info on this?   
« Last Edit: 10 June 2018, 23:56:17 by Hector »

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #19 on: 11 June 2018, 05:34:12 »

2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.

I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?

Finally they randomize numbers by some percentage. So even if you face same monster at same place, same level he'll have different health(energy, dex, str etc) each time. But I don't know if they randomize resistances or not.
I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.

Offline koderkrazy

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #20 on: 11 June 2018, 05:50:05 »
I haven't spotted any spike on their difficulty when killing them with over-leveled chars. I mean by this logic, an epic/legendary char facing against normal toxeus should still expect some challenge, doesn't he?.. Maybe its too little that we don't notice it?..

Can you provide some detailed info on this?
Game difficulty level affects more than character level. That is why enemies get tougher in epic and legendary.

You are right about the character level, the effect is less so you don't notice extra one or two hits to kill the monster. At higher levels we start dealing lot of damage and so many types of damages(auras, damage over time etc) so it is hard to notice.
« Last Edit: 11 June 2018, 10:37:55 by koderkrazy »

Offline koderkrazy

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #21 on: 11 June 2018, 06:18:57 »
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?
I believe these are the equations we are talking about.

I haven't figured out yet how these get multiplied to monster stats. So hard to give exact variations. We don't see exact monster health anywhere so it's hard to investigate after these equations.

I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
I am aware that they have several variations.
But they do randomize some stats. If you could debug Game.GAME::Player::OnCreatureDeath method from game.dll and try killing same monster multiple times, you'll see different health and energy each time.
I killed legendary Typhon 3 times with debugging on, and I got following health and energy.
First kill     HP: 124,352 energy: 28,620
Second kill HP: 148,868 energy: 30,528
Third kill    HP: 139,031 energy: 29,574

They have taken utmost care not to display monster health. Even in save files you don't get exact health of the greatest monster killed...

Offline tholuneve

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #22 on: 11 June 2018, 08:02:42 »
2) Difficulty based on player level, game difficulty(normal, epic,legendary), and number of players in party.
I have never heard about player level made any difference in difficulty. Nor do I observe or feel such difference. Do you have any proof on that?
I believe these are the equations we are talking about.

I haven't figured out yet how these get multiplied to monster stats. So hard to give exact variations. We don't see exact monster health anywhere so it's hard to investigate after these equations.

I don't think they totally randomize numbers. For same type of monsters they have several variants with similar but different stats. I think they only pick from one of these, not randomize numbers.
I am aware that they have several variations.
But they do randomize some stats. If you could debug Game.GAME::Player::OnCreatureDeath method from game.dll and try killing same monster multiple times, you'll see different health and energy each time.
I killed legendary Typhon 3 times with debugging on, and I got following health and energy.
First kill     HP: 124,352 energy: 28,620
Second kill HP: 148,868 energy: 30,528
Third kill    HP: 139,031 energy: 29,574

They have taken utmost care not to display monster health. Even in save files you don't get exact health of the greatest monster killed...
That's interesting.
Provided that you mentioned debug mode although I am not capable of using it, I think you are right on it. So the next step is to find the range of these RNG, and what stats are actually randomized. It would be great help if you can find these.
Regarding player level affect difficulty, I'm still doubtful about it. It's really beyond the experiance of any player or forum I visited. It might because the actual influence is so small that is easily neglected, or maybe they are only used in multiplayer game. Or is it possible that these equations are just abandoned equations and are never used in game?
One interesting thing in these equation is that it seems they could be used in multiplayer game. I know devs of AE said they totally reworked the balance with difficulties and multiplayer game, but since they never announced any detailed patch notes since Ragnarok, it would be glad if someone figure that out.
Plus, maybe, just maybe it does not affect actual stats of monsters, but affect the chance of hero monsters or higher tier monsters to be generated in game?
« Last Edit: 11 June 2018, 08:04:27 by tholuneve »

Offline koderkrazy

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #23 on: 11 June 2018, 10:37:21 »
So the next step is to find the range of these RNG, and what stats are actually randomized. It would be great help if you can find these.
It could be done, but it will take some time.

Regarding player level affect difficulty, I'm still doubtful about it. It's really beyond the experiance of any player or forum I visited. It might because the actual influence is so small that is easily neglected, or maybe they are only used in multiplayer game. Or is it possible that these equations are just abandoned equations and are never used in game?
I did an experiment, I tried to kill same monster on normal difficulty with level 40 character, then level 80 character, multiple times.
I got only 3 sets of numbers for killing Triton Raiders multiple times.
Kill 1: 1152.00--518.40(hp--energy)
Kill 2: 1200.00--540.00
Kill 3: 1248.00--561.00
The numbers turned out to be same for both the difficulty.
So the player level is not affecting monster stats. I am striking out my earlier statements regarding player level.   :-[

Plus, maybe, just maybe it does not affect actual stats of monsters, but affect the chance of hero monsters or higher tier monsters to be generated in game?
yes, spawn chance does increase with number of players in party. I found following equations:

Here, poolValue is chance specified for each monster in the area pool. There are multiple places in database where such equations are mentioned. So it is  hard to figure out which ones actually get used by the game and which ones are redundant.

Offline Mescalamba

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #24 on: 17 September 2018, 03:36:42 »
Just regged to say this.

I think bleed build might work rather okay (just soft tested it with lvl 40). Bone Charmer is the way (probably works for Rogue too, not sure). Either way, you can get -81% to enemy res vs bleeding. Im not sure how it scales with some extra levels, but probably might be enough to make about everything bleed.

Anyway, I think Death Chill aura + upgraded Study Prey might be able to get enemy bleed res to nicely negative department.

Also did small test with Spellbreaker (Warfare and Spirit) and +1 skill gives jump to 89%, so.. I guess +3 skills might tip it over 100%?

Poison is sadly I think not possible. :/ Nature gives some negative res to that, but its only 39% and probably wont go that far even with plus skills.

Offline soa

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #25 on: 17 September 2018, 19:53:10 »
Death Chill Aura synergy (Necrosis) gives -119% bleeding resistance at max level +4.
Plague synergy (Susceptibility) gives -54% poison resistance at max level +4.

Offline icefreeze

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Re: Is it possible to make a reliable poison + bleed build ?
« Reply #26 on: 20 September 2018, 13:47:50 »
Yes, you can.
But you should mix with another dmg type. You can equipped some item have bonus dmg.
I'm playing Brigand Caster + Traps running at Massboss. You still can kill undead enemies with only Pierce/Poison/Bleed dmg but it better if mix with another type dmg( cold/fire/lightning/elemental dmg).
https://youtu.be/cAP6fgStqdg?t=1h13m53s

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