Author Topic: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80  (Read 2013 times)

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Offline botebote77

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Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« on: 15 January 2018, 22:02:28 »
This guide also appears in KP but is so helpful this deserves it's own thread in this new dedicated TQ forum:



Resistance reduction comes in 2 flavors , absolute and percentage.
In the absolute case , the target’s resistance goes to ; original – debuff.
In the percentage case , it goes to ; original*(1-debuff%).
If the target’s resistance is negative ; original*(1+debuff%)

The 2 effects (percentage and absolute) are NOT always labeled correctly in the game.

Things with a percentage reduction ;
– All skills that reduce all resistances (ToW , soul blight , squall)
– weapons “of the betrayer”
– some epics/legendaries

Things with an absolute reduction ;
– All skills that reduce specific resistances (study prey , necrosis , triumph , plague)
– dark medicine and monkey king relics
– some epics/legendaries

As far as I see , percentage and absolute reduction are correctly labeled when they appear on most equipment.
So you know what you are getting when you pick up a sapros or pyrophoric lop.

If it is not obvious , percentage reduction has no effect on a 0% resistance.
It is possible to push resistances negative with percentage reduction , but good luck stacking 100%+ of percentage effects.

So for example if you hit a target with study prey (-50) , you’ll reduce his resistance to physical and piercing by 50 points = a 70% resistance will become a 20% resistance.
If you use squall (-30%) you’ll reduce his resistance by 30% = a resistance of 70% will become 49%.

STACKING

Now this is the complicated part.

GEAR

For effects on gear just add them all up apart from the ones on weapons and shields.

If both weapon and shield (or weapon and weapon) have the same type of effect (like both having absolute reduction) then only the stronger one will apply.
If they have different types of effects then they’ll both work.

You need to hit the opponent with the weapon/shield that has the debuff on it for it to work.
The effect is not shared by the weapons and the same goes for shields

So add the weapons effect (or effects) to your total , for a x absolute and y percentage total reduction.

These stack up as already discussed ; resist = orig_resist*(1 – pc_debuff) – abs_debuff.

SKILLS

For a start , multiple skills with percentage reduction DO NOT stack (or so it seems).
Yes , that’s right , squall and ToW don’t stack.
Only the strongest will apply.

Multiple skills with absolute reduction do stack.

Combining skills with different types?
In this case the absolute reduction happens BEFORE the percentage one.
So it’s ; resist = (orig_resist – abs_debuff)*(1 – pc_debuff)

SKILLS AND GEAR

Here is where I almost went insane.

For a start , percentage debuffs from gear don’t stack with percentage debuffs from skills , the stronger one is applied.
Absolute debuffs from gear stack with everything.

Then there’s the order.
Apparently skills get applied before gear , that simple.
It doesn’t matter what kind of reduction you have.

Which leads to this if you have percentage and absolute effects from both gear and skills.
resist = (orig_resist – skill_abs_debuff)*(1 – pc_debuff) – gear_abs_debuff

Where the “pc_debuff” is what you get from gear or what you get from a skill , whichever is larger.

BIG EXAMPLE

You (somehow) have study prey (-50) , plague (-39) , ToW (-30%) , sapros the corrupter (-60) and a weapon “of the betrayer” (-40%).
And you use them all to nuke an opponent with a 30% physical resistance.

For a start , check the gear.
The 2 weapons don’t have the same effect , one is absolute the other percentage , so they stack.
A total of -60 and -40%.

There are 2 absolute and 1 percentage skill , so they stack.
A total of -89 and -30%.

Then combine the 2 ; absolute effects always stack , but the percentages from gear and skills DON’T.
The total effect from gear is -40% , the one from skills is -30% , so the one from gear will apply because it’s stronger.

And for the total calculation
1) absolute reduction from skills
resist = 30% – 89% = -59%
2) percentage reduction from skills ; we don’t have any , it’s overriden by the betrayer weapon.
3) percentage reduction from gear , because the resistance is already negative we use a + instead of a -.
resist = -59%*(1+40%) = -83%.
4) absolute reduction from gear
resist = -83% – 60% = -143%

END OF BIG EXAMPLE

If there is a lower limit to how far negative you can push an opponent’s resistance then it must be very low.
I’ve pushed an opponent’s resistance below -1000% and it still worked.
KP link



Personal Sidenotes (by botebote77):

1) This guide was written for TQIT but is still true for TQAE/R

2) When comparing the three skills that give resistance reduction (squall, study prey, and susceptibility), study prey and susceptibility both give absolute resistance reduction and so is better in terms of lowering a resistance as low as possible.. However, squall reduces all resistances so squall might be best if you deal many different types of damages

3) In the case of spreading resistance reduction through attack skills, i found ternion, throwing knife, and thunder strike with 2 throwing weapons equipped to be the best.. Do not make the same mistake as i did by selling all my the frail.. The resistance reduction given by it is absolute and is a whopping flat 30.. If you get lucky enough to find Twisted Coil of the Parasite, it should be a no brainer that you should keep it.

4) Wherever you are now apocalyse80 good sir, domo arigatou gozaimasu
« Last Edit: 12 June 2018, 11:35:03 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline efko

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #1 on: 16 January 2018, 00:28:05 »
Post link from KP forum.
discord: efko#5979
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Offline CrocMagnum

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #2 on: 20 January 2018, 14:14:00 »
Thank you for porting the guide here and giving us your insight, botebote77. Now about that part:

Quote
2) When comparing the three skills that give resistance reduction (squall, study prey, and susceptibility), study prey and susceptibility both give absolute resistance reduction and so is better in terms of lowering a resistance as low as possible.. However, squall reduces all resistances including secondary and tertiary resistances.. So squall might be best if you deal many different types of damages

Something is bugging me for quite some time. Say I'm playing a Ranger (Hunting+Nature) and absolutely want to use BOTH Study Prey and Plague (and fully developing their respective synergies). Does the order matter when I cast these debuffs on ennemies?

In other words what is the most efficient way to cast these spells, is it better to cast Study Prey first, or is it better to cast Plague THEN Study Prey?

Same question for Sage (Hunting+ Storm): Study Prey and Squall.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2018, 14:15:58 by CrocMagnum »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #3 on: 20 January 2018, 14:54:59 »
study prey and plague are both absolute so they stack.. doesn't matter which comes first

as for study prey and squall, absolute comes in effect first.. so study prey comes in effect then squall.. if it makes a difference whether you cast study prey first or squall, I'm not sure.. however, we tried this in multiplayer before, and just the eye test, it doesn't seem to make a difference.. all enemies are super squishy whether we cast study prey first or squall

edit: personally, i like monkey kings trickery.. it gives absolute RR so it stacks with any of those 3 debuff skills.. according to apocalypse80, RR from skill happens first then RR from gear
« Last Edit: 20 January 2018, 15:04:22 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Hector

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #4 on: 20 January 2018, 18:18:42 »
Now that I think about it, skills like "take down" seemingly lost all their value in boss fights right? Their special resistance against %reduction damage can not be lowered in any way anymore if I remember right.
So what would be their use then? just to "take down" a mage hiding behind melee mobs? I'm asking because I heavily invested in this skill and even considering to max its passive modifier. The damage will already be more than enough for a non-boss monster. Then what would %reduction do any good in addition to that?
I've always wondered this. Does reduction damage apply itself after the initial damage is done? Or is it vice versa?

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #5 on: 20 January 2018, 23:02:36 »
the only good thing i see in take down is it's a charging skill.. i like to use charging skills against dactyl.. but since you have defense, shield charge would be better
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline Hector

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2018, 04:22:19 »
I just tried it at max level on epic Nessus and I think you are right. Equipment is also twinked.. tons of %pierce damage and its still not effective.
Time to bump up shield charge I guess.. :)

Offline CrocMagnum

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2018, 13:48:27 »
Now that I think about it, skills like "take down" seemingly lost all their value in boss fights right? Their special resistance against %reduction damage can not be lowered in any way anymore if I remember right.
So what would be their use then? just to "take down" a mage hiding behind melee mobs? I'm asking because I heavily invested in this skill and even considering to max its passive modifier. The damage will already be more than enough for a non-boss monster. Then what would %reduction do any good in addition to that?
I've always wondered this. Does reduction damage apply itself after the initial damage is done? Or is it vice versa?

I second what botebote77 said. ^^ I might add:

I use Take Down when my Class has no other charging options like, say, an Avenger. ;D

In those scenarios I actually don't use it to"Charge", I use it to "Flee":

Say one of those dreaded Undead Mages casts one of those raining Spells, I use Take Down to scram somewhere else. But the skill has a few issues:

- if my memory serve, you need a target to use this skill. So during 1-on-1 situations - say you versus a heroic monster, the skills is useless,

- you also need to be quite fast to make the skill work for you, be nimble with your "mouse work" ^^,

- the question is do you intend to "waste" 1 Skill Point to use an ability that is situational at best BUT could save your hide 1 out 150 times, ^^

+ on the other hand since the Anniversary Edition "Projectile Dodging now caps at 80%", so this ups the relative usefulness of Take Down by a teeny tiny notch,

Finally "Take Dawn" was also the staple of a "Health Reduction" Bone Charmer build. It was veteran Irma2 who came up with this very strong build for Immortal Throne, not sure if this build still aplies to the Anniversary Edition (EDIT: Mmmh apparently not, I just noticed your above comments sorry ; D):

Titan Quest The Bone Charmer by Irma2 (kirmiziperfect)

« Last Edit: 23 January 2018, 14:11:58 by CrocMagnum »

Offline Hector

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2018, 19:18:02 »
In the past, I used to try "dodging" enemies in the way you suggest here.. And yeah it requires a certain level of mouse work, your definitely right on that :)

Allright then... what would you suggest for a Defense + Hunting + Warfare character? I have all their charge skills in my disposal..

Ok since we talked about take down, forget that one..War Wind and Shield Charge remains.. I had Batter but did respec it thinking it wouldn't be necessary anymore.. But the thing is; War Wind seems to miss a lot especially when used as a runner attack rather than a standing attack.. It feels as if you have no OA most of the time you use it against groups.. Should I return to Batter and Shield Charge which leaves me only benefiting from Onslaught and Battle Rage from Warfare?

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #9 on: 23 January 2018, 20:32:55 »
CrocMagnum dude yes you need a target to use take down.. what bugs me in take down is the movement is very fast but the attack animation is slow.. so i think it's the worst charging skill.. however it's still a charging skill

that bown charmer was good back then because liche was the better tank than core dweller.. otherwise, spirit doesn't offer much for ranged toons except ternion.. maybe vision of death and mind control but there are better CCs.. for a bonecharmer now i think my *ehem 65% CDR ehem* would be better.. 65% because it's the CDR needed to make CotH and unearthly power permanent.. that is without spending a point in int..

 or my theoretical pierce ternion using staff of the chosen and Apollo's Will.. staff of the chosen because it gives flat pierce.. but it should be twinked and it maybe needs an elemental staff on secondary

core dweller is tankier now than in IT so for bow user, i prefer your avenger over bonecharmer.. btw, have you tested it with thrown weapons?

edit: the monster lure as bait.. and then stepping back.. i copied that from you and i apply to my mage haruspex :)
« Last Edit: 23 January 2018, 22:18:29 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline CrocMagnum

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #10 on: 24 January 2018, 13:33:15 »
In the past, I used to try "dodging" enemies in the way you suggest here.. And yeah it requires a certain level of mouse work, your definitely right on that :)

Allright then... what would you suggest for a Defense + Hunting + Warfare character? I have all their charge skills in my disposal...

I forgot: when you use Take Down to Flee instead of Charging you need to aim for a weak target, preferably for your health. I know this is common sense but still... ^-^

About the charging skills of the Warden (Hunting+Defense): in my eyes Shield Charge is way safer than other charging skills (Batter and Take Down) because one thing: the safety of the Status Effects it grants you: Stun and Skill Disruption (thanks to the synergy) are invaluable for me. It's just the cooldown that is total a pain.

About War Wind missing often: it was already the case in Immortal Throne, not sure why though.

CrocMagnum dude yes you need a target to use take down.. what bugs me in take down is the movement is very fast but the attack animation is slow.. so i think it's the worst charging skill.. however it's still a charging skill...

Yeah I agree! This is exactly what I said in my previous post. ^^

core dweller is tankier now than in IT so for bow user, i prefer your avenger over bonecharmer.. btw, have you tested it with thrown weapons?

About the Core Dweller: Well! You've clearly tasted the awesomeness of the Core Dweller. But for those who never tried it on higher difficulties, you're missing out, folks. Best tank ever.

About Ragnarok: Not yet but I'm about to work on it. :P The funny thing is I own Ragnarok but have no time to totally immerse myself into this promising DLC. More often than not I'm quite exhausted when going back home these days. So when I have some real free time I will start a fresh play (because starting from level 40 is too easy and breaks the pace). I need to feel the game then -If everything goes well- I'm going to add a modest section to the Ragnarok DLC in my Avenger Guide, the basics that beginners should know about the DLC.

edit: the monster lure as bait.. and then stepping back.. i copied that from you and i apply to my mage haruspex :)

Indeed it works reliably, with Haruspex too. Even better with Avengers: when the Core Dweller -your first layer of defense- falls you're happy to have a fallback plan with the Monster Lure. Now when BOTH are on the battlefield you can conquer and divide mobs by sending the Core Dweller on one side and throwing the Monster Lure somewhere else. This is a beautiful thing. When I do that to Machae Archers I feel dirty.  :))

Edit: thanks for the Raganrok tip, man! ; )
« Last Edit: 24 January 2018, 14:01:18 by CrocMagnum »

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #11 on: 24 January 2018, 13:47:29 »
actually i haven't tried core dweller in higher difficulties yet because i stopped playing my stonespeaker long before ;D

but it's easy to see it's tankier now.. i have no core dweller in my haruspex so i cast multiple lures instead

about ragnarok
Spoiler for Hiden:
core dweller has a weakness in act 5.. those damned water spirits
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #12 on: 12 June 2018, 22:09:26 »


this is a test character

i made tests if flat reduced resists stack using 3 items: sapros, twisted coil of the parasite, and monkey
 kings trickery (x2 so it’s more noticeable).. all items have the same wording: x reduced resist for y seconds

1st test - sapros only, then with twisted coil of the parasite, then with 2 monkey kings trickery
i tested it against automatoi in normal.. automatoi should be immune to life leech from twisted coil of the parasite.. but just in case, the 2nd and 3rd tests i did not use twisted coil of the parasite.. the 2 rings only give damage to pets, i have no pets so those should give me no additional damage

2nd test - sapros only, then 2 monkey kings trickery

3rd test - sapros only, then 2 monkey kings trickery

all results are constant.. the 1st hit is lower than the 2nd and 3rd hits.. and when i applied twisted coil of the parasite, my damage got higher.. 2nd and 3rd tests no twisted coil of the parasite, my damage got higher when i equipped monkey kings trickery

tests were done using @koderkrazy 's show damage mod
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=483.0
« Last Edit: 13 June 2018, 01:06:39 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

Offline botebote77

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Re: Resistance Reduction Guide by apocalypse80
« Reply #13 on: 18 June 2018, 21:12:59 »
regarding my flat reduced resist stacking test, a Stanislav dude answered on youtube.. this what he said:

Quote
it is not explained properly... gear slots and mastery skills directly tied to weapon attack stack additively  but not in between gear and spells( two different sources-can not stack)
 -> hence the difference attack(weapon) vs. casting(spell).

i only said:
Quote
stanislav, maybe so.. at least it's clearer now :) 
i won't bother with more tests I'm not using sapros anyway ;D

ps: this little conversation was in clex plays advanced damage guide video on YouTube
« Last Edit: 18 June 2018, 21:14:42 by botebote77 »
i eat mana for breakfast
Spoiler for Hiden:
finished ragnarok xmax x3 with sorcerer, illusionist, mage haruspex, skinchanger

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