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Titan Quest - Anniversary Edition/Ragnarök => Anniversary Edition - General discussion => Topic started by: zivshteg on 10 June 2018, 16:18:24

Title: dedicated poison build
Post by: zivshteg on 10 June 2018, 16:18:24
hi there
my first post :)

i realy love poison although he may prove un reliable vs undead and constract.
i realy want to build me an effective poison build
my first mastery is rough
im gonee do with throwing weapons build
the range is meduim but all i need is the speed
my aim is to hit each mob once and move on
here is what i am thinking so far
1. max envenom weapon tree max/max/max/max
2. max cs with 1 point in lucky hit
3. max disarm trap to deal with constract and devices
4. what else maybe throwin knife or gas bomb

next mastery - that where i need help
keep in mind that my aim is not to cast many spell but use mainly my lmb
1. maybe spirit to deal with the undead?
2. maybe nature to deal with poison resist (im less incline to choose nature becasue that mean an extra spell i need to cast instead of fire and forgot)
3.dream- maybe for tow? i wonder if tow range in enough for thrown weapons

to conclude
i need help

Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 10 June 2018, 18:45:12
If you are building poison build then you gotta have gas bombs. They deal soooo much poison damage.
Remember you need to throw gas bombs directly in the face of the enemies to quickly activate them.

For Autometa: put some points in disarm traps then, then shards of gas bomb will alone kill automata if you have some +pierce damage.
For Undead: Undead do take 25-50% poison damage.. Increase pierce damage so that throwing weapons will be effective.
Throwing weapons: You might wanna go for throwing knives skill and shot gun enemies with multiple knives at once. With good recharge reduction items and good casting speed this skill could be spammable.
Second skill: I suggest you pick Hunting it has good skills for thrown weapons like volly and wood lore. Awesome thing you could do is cast Study pray on mob and spam knives, they'll melt in no time.

Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Hector on 11 June 2018, 00:06:29
What would be the best poison resistance reduction technique in this case, if he goes with Hunting as secondary?

Just Monkey kings and Shen Nongs with appropriate gear would be enough? I'm really curious about this..
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 11 June 2018, 01:19:05
this is a quote by me :)  from my illusionist thread.. i think i was still playing my illusionist the time i posted that so the memory should still be fresh (maybe?  :D )

Quote
because in AE, undeads don't have poison resistance but they have poison absorption.. meaning you can't lower them with RR or susceptibility.. at least that's my understanding

based on my personal observations, undeads are weak against fire and physical.. pierce even with RR is still weak

better get other skills then

edit: from the AE changelog under enemies:

- Undead now absorb 70% Poison damage (on all difficulties) rather than having a resistance
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 11 June 2018, 04:57:47
What would be the best poison resistance reduction technique in this case, if he goes with Hunting as secondary?
You get poison resist from armor, rings, charms etc. Just like you'll get other resistance like fire, bleeding.
Why bother more about poison resistances over other? It's not likely he's going to take poison damage from his own bombs.

Just Monkey kings and Shen Nongs with appropriate gear would be enough? I'm really curious about this..
Resistance reduction doesn't stack/add. Game picks up one highest number available from skills and gears. So using two rings with monkey kings(12 reduction) and one weapon with Shen Nongs(18 reduction), won't improve anything.
E.g. if you are using Monkey king relic and you have Sappros the Ccorrupter(60 reduced resistances), game will pick 60 reduced resistance from Sappros and ignore Monky King's 12 reduction.

For enemy resistance reduction he could use battle standard or death-chill aura but these have limited range, not good for throwing build.

Study pray offers 48-62% reduction which is way higher than any relic or charm. Since he wants  to throw weapons, Study pray is viable choice to reduce resistances.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: zivshteg on 11 June 2018, 05:11:12
what about tow?

is the range large enough for throwing builds?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: tholuneve on 11 June 2018, 05:24:10
What would be the best poison resistance reduction technique in this case, if he goes with Hunting as secondary?
You get poison resist from armor, rings, charms etc. Just like you'll get other resistance like fire, bleeding.
Why bother more about poison resistances over other? It's not likely he's going to take poison damage from his own bombs.

Just Monkey kings and Shen Nongs with appropriate gear would be enough? I'm really curious about this..
Resistance reduction doesn't stack/add. Game picks up one highest number available from skills and gears. So using two rings with monkey kings(12 reduction) and one weapon with Shen Nongs(18 reduction), won't improve anything.
E.g. if you are using Monkey king relic and you have Sappros the Ccorrupter(60 reduced resistances), game will pick 60 reduced resistance from Sappros and ignore Monky King's 12 reduction.

For enemy resistance reduction he could use battle standard or death-chill aura but these have limited range, not good for throwing build.

Study pray offers 48-62% reduction which is way higher than any relic or charm. Since he wants  to throw weapons, Study pray is viable choice to reduce resistances.
They do stack. Same type of resistance reduction from same attack do stack. They do not stack if they come from different attacks. By same type I mean XX reduce ALL resistances in Y seconds.
Battle standard and study pray do not belong to the type above so they can further stack. It's a long and tedious story for the whole resistance reduction stack thing. I guess someone else can link a guide to you.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 11 June 2018, 06:44:37
You are right, it's a complex discussion.
There are 3 types of reduced resistances some of them stack some of them don't.

Here is detailed chart from Clex Plays video:
(https://image.ibb.co/hNozyT/2018_06_11_10_06_25_Titan_Quest_Ragnarok_Advanced_Guide_for_Dealing_Damage_You_Tube.jpg)

This is the exact point where he explains it. Very good stuff though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo08phWvC4o&t=2162s

Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: MedeaFleecestealer on 11 June 2018, 07:25:42
what about tow?

is the range large enough for throwing builds?

I don't think so.  According to the TitanCalcAE it's only 5 meters.  You could try it out and see though.  You can always buy the points back at a Mystic if necessary.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 11 June 2018, 09:34:54
according to apocalypse80, absolute RR from gear stack provided it's not  from weapon and weapon or weapon and shield

https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=238.0

i swear i did not edit anything :)
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: zivshteg on 11 June 2018, 18:08:41
so basiclly im screwed since they change undead poison resistance to absorb'
there is no way around it and no rr method would work?

Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Hector on 11 June 2018, 18:46:13
Quote
Quote
What would be the best poison resistance reduction technique in this case, if he goes with Hunting as secondary?

You get poison resist from armor, rings, charms etc. Just like you'll get other resistance like fire, bleeding.
Why bother more about poison resistances over other? It's not likely he's going to take poison damage from his own bombs.

I meant the sources of RR you use against enemies, not the resistances you yourself have..
BTW Clex's channel is indeed very good.. This particular video was suggested to me by botebote77 but I didn't watch it to the end.. Guess I have to take a full look at it now.. thanks for bringing it up..

Quote
so basiclly im screwed since they change undead poison resistance to absorb'
there is no way around it and no rr method would work?

That's what I have been thinking as well, but the folks around here are really good at finding "workarounds" for seemingly impossible scenarios, so I have faith in them :)
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 11 June 2018, 19:38:10
lolz i like the stubbornness.. if there's a will there's a way ;)
well solution starts from inspiration.. it seems you don't lack any.. i don't have interest in a pure poison build but i can still cheer you on :)

edit: btw, I'm not convinced sapros and aftershock don't stack.. i asked him about that if he's sure.. but my comment does not appear on my mobile but it does on my pc.. so I'm not sure if my comment really registered.. can i ask you guys if you see my comment there? on his advanced damage guide video on youtube?...
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Hector on 11 June 2018, 20:29:33
Its not there, I've looked at every comment and sub comments and yours is not there botebote.. your nickname is same for youtube right?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 11 June 2018, 21:35:32
it really doesn't show even after i removed the KP link.. wtf how do i do this? my username is bote bote

edit: my comment is this:
Quote
clex, you're sure sapros and aftershock don't stack?

i'm looking at apocalypse80's guide which was also saved at kirmiziperfect
(KP link which i removed)

sapros and aftershock are both flat, not %.. the wording is just like in shen-nong's dark medicine and monkey king's trickery.. both of which he classified as absolute.. and under stacking, he said absolute RR from gear stack except from weapon and weapon, and weapon and shield.. so i would assume shen-nong's and monkey kings stack.. both are flat just like sapros and aftershock
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 11 June 2018, 23:29:28
it now appears on my mobile.. without the link.. it's there now right?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: efko on 11 June 2018, 23:44:51
it now appears on my mobile.. without the link.. it's there now right?
I can't see any link in your previous post.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 12 June 2018, 01:31:17
it now appears on my mobile.. without the link.. it's there now right?
I can't see any link in your previous post.
this (https://youtube.com/watch?v=Jo08phWvC4o&t=2824s) is the video i meant.. i was asking if my comment finally appears.. because my earlier attempts did not.. my user name there is bote bote
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 12 June 2018, 03:51:37
it really doesn't show even after i removed the KP link.. wtf how do i do this? my username is bote bote

edit: my comment is this:
Quote
clex, you're sure sapros and aftershock don't stack?

i'm looking at apocalypse80's guide which was also saved at kirmiziperfect
(KP link which i removed)

sapros and aftershock are both flat, not %.. the wording is just like in shen-nong's dark medicine and monkey king's trickery.. both of which he classified as absolute.. and under stacking, he said absolute RR from gear stack except from weapon and weapon, and weapon and shield.. so i would assume shen-nong's and monkey kings stack.. both are flat just like sapros and aftershock
One of my comment on his videos is also not showing up. May be he's turn on show approved comments only and hasn't approved our comments....
Also there is setting for not showing inappropriate comments, but I don't see how this is inappropriate:
Here are the pierce damage equations for each version of the game :
TQ               :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/650)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-IT 1.17 :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/1000)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-AE         :  (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 12 June 2018, 04:19:31
i don't understand.. where is the = in the equation? what is DV?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 12 June 2018, 04:41:32
i don't understand.. where is the = in the equation? what is DV?
well that was not the point :P

where is =?  Consider these as right side of the '='. Outcome of the equation gets assigned to some variable in memory at run time.
what is DV?   This is just naming they've used internally, doesn't matter. May be it stands for Default Value...
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 12 June 2018, 05:44:12
so the left side is the pierce damage.. we are computing for the pierce damage? why is there pierce damageDV on the right side then? or is that the raw pierce damage? like if you use a 25% pierce ratio weapon that deals 100 damage, the raw pierce damage is then 25..

heh sorry if I'm making things more complicated.. i use to love solving equations like this back in high school :P
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 12 June 2018, 05:54:37
so the left side is the pierce damage.. we are computing for the pierce damage? why is there pierce damageDV on the right side then? or is that the raw pierce damage? like if you use a 25% pierce ratio weapon that deals 100 damage, the raw pierce damage is then 25..

heh sorry if I'm making things more complicated.. i use to love solving equations like this back in high school :P
I think you are right.
it make sense if suffix DV means raw value...
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: tholuneve on 12 June 2018, 05:56:05
TQ               :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/650)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-IT 1.17 :  (pierceDamageDV * ((dexterityDV/1000)+1))+(dexterityDV*0.03)

TQ-AE         :  (((pierceDamageDV / ((strengthDV/500)+1)) * ((strengthDV/2000)+1)) * ((dexterityDV/400)+1)) + (dexterityDV*0.03)

You somewhat...confused by two types of pierce damage: flat pierce damage and pierce damage converted from weapon.
Flat pierce damage does not benefit from any attribute pointes in TQIT, and does benefit from dexterity in AE (1000/100%).
Pierce damage converted from weapon benefit from both strength and dexterity, both in TQIT and AE. The difference is that in TQIT, the multiplier is 500/100% for strength and 1000/100% for dexterity, and 1000/100% for strength and 500/100% for dexterity in AE.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: tholuneve on 12 June 2018, 05:59:04
so the left side is the pierce damage.. we are computing for the pierce damage? why is there pierce damageDV on the right side then? or is that the raw pierce damage? like if you use a 25% pierce ratio weapon that deals 100 damage, the raw pierce damage is then 25..

heh sorry if I'm making things more complicated.. i use to love solving equations like this back in high school :P
That pierce damage DV has already counted for strength and pierce ratio. I have seen such equation from somebody else's work so I am pretty sure on that.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 12 June 2018, 06:56:29
Thanks for the detailed info. I got these equations from combatequations.dbr.

That pierce damage DV has already counted for strength and pierce ratio.
it would be great if you could share the equations for piercedamageDV(or any other DVs), which involves strength and ratio.

Also please share link to guides(if exists) where all these equations/calculations are explained. I just want to look at the whole picture...
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 12 June 2018, 08:30:06
What would be the best poison resistance reduction technique in this case, if he goes with Hunting as secondary?

Just Monkey kings and Shen Nongs with appropriate gear would be enough? I'm really curious about this..
how about Frail and Fragile(set Ronzer's Gift) with both of them equipped it gives 50 reduced resistances for 3 sec.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 12 June 2018, 09:33:48
good eye on the frail and the fragile.. that further convinces me that flat reduced resists stack.. it makes no sense if it doesn't because it defeats the purpose of the ronzer's gift set

thank you for this comment.. i knew i can take the word of apocalypse80.. he does not know it and he does not know me but he's my TQ hero  O0
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 12 June 2018, 14:35:08
i just tested flat reduced resist stacking from items.. it does stack.. I'll post it tomorrow if i wake up early.. maybe under resistance reduction guide by apocalypse80 which i posted in guidesAE

edit: https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=238.msg5004#msg5004

late edit: a Stanislav dude answered on youtube.. this what he said:

Quote
it is not explained properly... gear slots and mastery skills directly tied to weapon attack stack additively  but not in between gear and spells( two different sources-can not stack)
 -> hence the difference attack(weapon) vs. casting(spell).

i only said:
Quote
stanislav, maybe so.. at least it's clearer now :) 
i won't bother with more tests I'm not using sapros anyway ;D
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Laionidas on 12 June 2018, 16:21:39
Back on the second mastery: @botebote77 is right. For a dedicated poison build, I'd always pick Nature for an Illusionist.

The -39% poison resistance on Susceptibility, on top of Plague's other virtues is just too good. Also, with Stinging Nettle actually usefull, Briar Ward and Sanctuary suddenly become a lot more interesting to, and provide a platform to lob Gas Bombs from.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Hector on 12 June 2018, 20:17:09
Is there an updated guide for a poison based illusionist build? I searched the net but didn't come up with anything new..
Do you have any suggestions for dealing with non-living enemies with an illusionist? I suppose pierce resistance reduction coupled with serious amounts of pierce damage is the general mindset on killing the undead.. but with an illusionist, this option would be out, wouldn't it?
How about picking spirit instead? would it be even harder to play?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: zivshteg on 13 June 2018, 06:12:54
Laionidas

sincce they change the resiste ti absorb' im not sure resiste reductaion would do any good :(
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 13 June 2018, 10:36:27
@zivshteg , may be we are looking at this wrong way...
As we can't reduce absorb, so instead of focusing on reducing resist, try dealing more damage to undeads :P


Undead is just one type of enemy, so keep swap rings and gear for undead, equip it before entering catacombs.
The gear could have following things:
1. Incarnation of the Djed of Osiris could give you +106% bonus damage to undeads. if you have right completion bonus.
2. Bellerophon's Leggings gives +60% damage to undead.
3. Rhesus' Whitewashed Armor gives +60% damage to undead.
4. Phantom Bane - ring+70% damage to undead.
5. Sphere of Eternity - artefact +50% damage to undead.

So you could go more than +200% damage to undead...

Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: MedeaFleecestealer on 13 June 2018, 19:19:17
Spectral Matter can roll with %damage to undead as well as a bonus.  There are also weapons/staves that have "... of Necromancy" as a suffix which deal undead % damage.

Iirc Plague line slows them down so may also do some damage.  Haven't tried a fully maxed Plague lins on them yet though.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: zivshteg on 15 June 2018, 06:40:03
so....
i choosed nature for the plague tree
should i go dex+int or dex +str?
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: MedeaFleecestealer on 15 June 2018, 11:34:23
Depends on how you want to play the game.  Do you want to go melee with close in fighting or stand back firing off your staff while your pets do most of the killing for you?  Thing is Nature doesn't rely in Int to boost its damage potential so unless you want to use a staff and wear caster gear you're probably best going str/dex. If you want to be a caster type then int/dex is the way to go.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 15 June 2018, 12:56:56
so....
i choosed nature for the plague tree
should i go dex+int or dex +str?
it depends.. aside from what medea said, int + dex, you would probably use a staff.. or santas shield and spear or maybe lower tier throwing weapon.. str + dex you can equip the shield and 1h weapon of your choosing.. the downside is it's harder to up your cast speed because they often come from int gear.. the easiest to equip would be a little in str and int, rest in dex.. but that is only possible if you have requirement reduction items.. there is a ragnarok only item blue shield that can help you with that but you would need more from other items

so i put it like this:
1) a little in str and int, rest in dex - easiest to gear but only possible if you have pre-farmed items
2) int + dex - if you don't like (1), easier to gear but you probably will use a staff (staff of the chosen comes to mind)
3) str/dex - 1h weapon + shield, has access to more DA.. in my case, i got cast speed from jade shuriken and rhesus whitewashed armor (total speed), which also happens to have requirement reduction.. one occult ring would solve this problem but I'm a petmaster so i wanted my jewelries to be wraithlords/alfathers
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Laionidas on 15 June 2018, 13:31:21
it depends.. aside from what medea said, int + dex, you would probably use a staff.. or santas shield and spear or maybe lower tier throwing weapon.. str + dex you can equip the shield and 1h weapon of your choosing.. the downside is it's harder to up your cast speed because they often come from int gear.. the easiest to equip would be a little in str and int, rest in dex.. but that is only possible if you have requirement reduction items.. there is a ragnarok only item blue shield that can help you with that but you would need more from other items.

Couldn't he benefit a lot from using thrown weapons? I think Blade Honing even applies to them, since they are swords and axes.

Something like this (https://www.kirmiziperfect.com/titancalc-anniversary-edition/TitanCalce491e491e491.html?mastery=Illusionist&master1=4&master2=6&sa=30&m1=32-0-1-1-0-1-8-16-1-8-0-0-8-0-6-1-0-8-1-8-0&m2=32-8-6-12-0-0-8-0-6-0-0-12-0-0-12-0-8-12-0-0-0-0) as a core setup maybe?

Do you want to go melee with close in fighting or stand back firing off your staff while your pets do most of the killing for you?

If he wants Plague, Gas Bomb, Briar, and the Envenom Tree, I doubt he can afford enough in pets to make them effective. It can of course be done, but it wouldn't really be a dedicated poison build anymore. Personally I would just go for at least 1 point in SotP, to get that attack speed boost.
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: koderkrazy on 15 June 2018, 13:37:17
Dex increases poison and bleed.
As you are focusing on poison I suggest you put enough points in str and int to equip desired items... rest all put in dex

Here is the detailed chart how str, int, dex affects damage from Clex Plays:
(https://image.ibb.co/fvZ6ny/str_dex_int.jpg)
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: botebote77 on 15 June 2018, 13:44:42

Couldn't he benefit a lot from using thrown weapons? I think Blade Honing even applies to them, since they are swords and axes.

of course.. i use thrown weapon myself.. but higher tiered throwing weapons require some str (high 200 to 300+)

i think I'll upload a gameplay of my illusionist.. heh here i go again with my old habit.. mine is a throwing weapon + pets build though
Title: Re: dedicated poison build
Post by: Laionidas on 15 June 2018, 13:45:52
Dex increases poison and bleed.
As you are focusing on poison I suggest you put enough points in str and int to equip desired items... rest all put in dex

Here is the detailed chart how str, int, dex affects damage from Clex Plays:
(https://image.ibb.co/fvZ6ny/str_dex_int.jpg)

Now I'm actually getting really interested in building a Trickster, since Runeword: Feather would allow you to not invest in Str. at all, and go a full 100% Dex.

@botebote77