Titan Quest Fans Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: DwayneA on 05 March 2020, 00:36:54
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As I said in my first thread, I only took one character through Immortal Throne in the past and not playing anymore because I didn't think I was any good at the game. The character was a Conqueror, which I thought was a good choice for a beginner because this class has the highest base health of all characters when both masteries are maxed. I struggled through the game and felt like I wasn't doing much damage. I had to frequently visit the mystics in order to reallocate skill points, whether to spend on other skills or the mastery itself. Even when I reached Hades, my character wasn't dealing impressive damage and I didn't have high-level skills like I usually do when playing Diablo II.
So before I try this character again through Atlantis and Anniversary Edition, (or any other character for that matter), I'd appreciate it if someone could answers these questions to help me build a good character and spend my skill and stat points wisely.
-Which masteries are best to start the game with?
-Should I wait to pick my second mastery even at level 8?
-How many points per level should be spent on the mastery and how many per level on skills?
-How do I know if I should get a skill right away or if I should wait?
-What determines if a skill should get more than one point or be maxed?
-Should I max some skills as soon as they are available?
-Should I spend my stat points as soon as I get them or should I reserve them?
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This is pretty much personal taste and also depends on what type of character you're planning to play. Assuming by "this character" you mean another Conqueror then this is what I used for my 2.
https://www.tqcalc.com/TitanCalc738c738c738c.html?mastery=Conquerer&master1=5&master2=3&sa=30&m1=32-8-1-0-6-12-0-0-6-6-6-12-0-0-6-8-6-6-0-0-6-0-0-0-0&m2=32-6-1-8-0-8-6-0-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-0-0-0-6-0-0-0-0-0
Like you I was new to the game the first time I played one so chose the tankiest option I could think of. Second time was because of a failed PC and no backup made (learnt lesson about that).
For me Defense is the first mastery simply because of it's defensive qualities; it'll get you through those first early levels without too much difficulty. Once I chose Warfare at L8 it was max out Onslaught; this is one of the few skills in the game where it pays to max it out early.
Apart from maxing out Onslaught I usually climb the mastery bars putting a point in the skills I plan to take and then start maxing those skills out. I probably climbed Defense first and then started maxing out a skill in there with a point each level while using the other two to climb Warfare and put points into those skills.
What determines whether a skill is maxed or not is a question of how useful it is and what your playstyle is. You can see from the tqcalc that I like a quite simple style. A skill on the LMB, another on the RMB and pretty much passives after that. Other people prefer to use many skills. You'll see that I've only put a point into Battle Rage, this is because apart from increasing physical damage a bit nothing else in the skill changes so to me it's not worth more than the one point. Neither it's chance to activate nor it's % OA increases with more points.
As for stat points again this is a matter of personal preference. Lots of people do prefer to keep some in reserve, but since I plan my builds out with the calc I never hang on to any since I know exactly where I'm going to be putting them.
For the above build you could look at adding Battle Standard and Rally, although I personally don't like them because of their long cooldowns and also you could consider War Wind/Lacerate as an alternative to Shield Charge or in addition. Colossus Form can be fun even with just one point in it, but you have to be careful not to use it in a space you can't get out of until you shrink back down again.
This is the guide I used way back in 2008 when I first started playing the game. Although written for the original TQ only I think a lot of the advice in there still holds good today.
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=612.0
Also bear in mind that you and me didn't have really good gear when we played these. We had to make do with what we found/bought along the way and that gives a different playstyle to a Conqueror who has BiS gear from many years of item collecting.
I didn't play D2 much and never at high levels, but if you're expecting flashy skills that fill the screen then you're going to be disappointed. TQ doesn't have them. For that you'd be better playing TQ's spiritual successor Grim Dawn.
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um, why didn't you completely max both masteries on the calculator link? Wouldn't maxing them give you more stat and health bonuses? Why did you leave them at level 32?
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32 was the max level you could reach in the original game. Yes you could push up to 40 on one or two if you want. The build is only L55 and the max level for the game with Ragnarok is 85 now. Not sure if Atlantis pushed it even higher. Also none of the skills at that level appeal to me; remember that in the game you can't take points out of the mastery bars, only out of skills. So if you push up to 40 and then decide it wasn't worth it you can't get those points back to use elsewhere.
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Conqueror is a really slow-start type of build. My first character where I really knew what was I doing was a Conqueror and I didn't start "having fun" with it untill mid-epic. In addition to this, as Medea stated, gear is a big "problem" for any first character, simply because it's your first character and you don't have a vault full of gear to choose from. Farming goes a long way in this game and recently I saw a really good quote from someone along these lines: playing with your first character isn't just playing for your character, it's playing for your gear vault.
To put this into perspective, my second character was a Templar, and by the time I got it up to, let's say lvl 40, it was a mean killing machine without any deaths because I had so many gear stashed up that I could do whatever I wanted with it. On my Conqueror it was always "okay, I need a new shield, time to farm for it". My Conqueror is currently lvl 72 with in-game time of 5 days and 15 hours and I'm still in Greece on Legendary difficulty, poking the Hydra in the face for a new shield drop.
As far as playstyle and how to build it, it really is up to you. Do you want a dualwield build, shield build, do you want a fast paced sword wielder, or a mace stun machine.
I went for shield and a weapon with at least average attack speed. I started with Warfare first, unlocked Onslaught, maxed it out, then moved to Defense and rushed Shield charge(I absolutely adore this skill, and even though some people say it isn't a good end-game skill, I'm still using it and will continue to do so). After that, similar to Medea, I just went for passive skills that compliment my play style(Weapon training and Armor handling are must-haves), but, because I'm a "face-tank" type of player, I maxed out Battle rage with it's tree, and added Battle standard at the end of Epic difficulty for good measure. As far as how to distribute your points, assess your situation. If for the past couple of levels you found yourself not dying much and killing everything with relative ease, up that mastery bar. If you feel you need a bit more attack power or defense to stay alive, pick a skill, and distribute points between that skill and the mastery bar. The only "rule" I would say you should follow is one skill at a time, if you try to develop several skills at the same time, you'll just get poor results. And don't be afraid to experiment, you can always respec points later if you don't like what you get.
Good luck and don't hesitate to ask about anything you need :)
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Other than the Conqueror, what are some other good classes to use for beginners?
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Well, it comes down to personal preference, but from my experience, Dream is really good either combined with Warfare for a Templar, or with Hunting for a Haruspex(bow or spear). I haven't played any pet builds or casters so I can't speak for them, I mostly stick with melee builds in RPG's.
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Templar is Dream and Defense. Dream and Warfare is the Harbinger.
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Templar is Dream and Defense. Dream and Warfare is the Harbinger.
You're right, sorry, it was a long day, my brain was already asleep :D
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Wouldn't the end base stats after maxing both masteries determine how you should build your character? For example, if you have low health you should make a caster or a long-range fighter. With high health, you should go melee. With high intelligence, make a caster. With high strength, go melee. With high dexterity, focus on pierce, bleeding, or poison damage.
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Well, yeah, it kinda does, but you still have to choose which mastery you're going to be prioritizing and how you distribute your skill/stat points. On top of that, end game gear is a big part of character building, you have to know what you're aiming for. That's where guides come quite handy - you don't have to follow them by heart, but they give you a good idea of end game possibilities and options.
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Wouldn't the end base stats after maxing both masteries determine how you should build your character? For example, if you have low health you should make a caster or a long-range fighter. With high health, you should go melee. With high intelligence, make a caster. With high strength, go melee. With high dexterity, focus on pierce, bleeding, or poison damage.
Well, yes and no. Most classes in the game are hybrids, i.e. a mix of melee/caster. As you can see from this list done by Irma2 many years ago
https://titanquestfans.net/index.php?topic=679.0
many can concentrate on either the melee or caster side of things more.
Low health can be easily dealt with by a tip from Poinas many years ago as well. There are 3 quests per difficulty which give you bonus attribute points - Chiron's bow side quest, Imhotep as part of the main quest when you hand over the Hand of Balance and Eye of Chaos and the Terracota Soldiers side quest. That's 6 points per difficulty - 18 in total. Use these bonus points to boost health; in the original game that boosted it by 720 iirc, but I think with the AE version it's even more. Obviously depending on your build and skill useage you could put them into energy instead or split them between the two which is what I often do.
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Some classes were meant to be made only for fighting and others as only caster.
Fighting
Assassin
Berserker
Brigand
Champion
Conqueror
Corsair
Guardian
Runesmith
Slayer
Templar
Warden
Caster
Conjurer
Druid
Elementalist
Oracle
Soothsayer
Summoner
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From the game manual with the disc version of the game.
Full Melee: Warrior (Warfare), Defender (Defense), Conqueror, Slayer, Warden
Melee: Hunter (Hunting), Rogue (Rogue), Corsair, Brigand, Assassin
Caster: Theurgist (Spirit), Wanderer (Nature), Soothsayer, Summoner, Druid
Full Caster: Stormcaller (Storm), Pyromancer (Earth), Conjurer, Oracle, Elementalist
Hybrid: Spellbreaker, Spellbinder, Bone Charmer, Warlock, Champion, Guardian, Ranger, Illusionist, Magician, Sorcerer, Avenger, Sage, Thane, Paladin, Battlemage, Juggernaut
They didn't do a similar list for the IT expansion, but this is what I consider them to be:
Melee: Harbinger, Templar
Caster: Evoker, Prophet, Ritualist, Diviner
Hybrid: Haruspex, Dreamkiller
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what do they mean by full melee/caster? What's the difference between a full and a normal?
Also, is there a similar list for Ragnarok?
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I've no idea. That's something only Medierra, Westfaliah and Grava know probably. ;D
For Ragnarok, again no list since it's digital, but I'd put them this way.
Melee: Berserker, Runesmith
Caster: Shaman, Skinchanger, Thunderer, Stonespeaker
Hybrid: Trickster, Dragon Hunter, Seidr Worker
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So classes listed as melee should only be built for melee combat? Same with casters built only as casters? What about hybrids? Can you focus on one mastery over the other, making that character either as a fighter or a mage?
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Well, if you know what you're doing you could probably make some full casters as melee, but it's not really recommended. Casters can be either pet based or not, same for the melee/full melee classes - they can be played as full melee, i.e. up close fighting or as ranged mostly with some close fighting as backup. For me personally if I choose Hunting as a mastery it's always going to be a bow user so ranged mostly. Others may choose to focus on the spear side of Hunting and that would obviously be close fighting with no ranged to it. I usually make sure all my melee characters have a bow as backup since there are some situations where it's simply safer, if slower, to use one.
And yes, hybrids are just that - you focus more on the main mastery than perhaps you would otherwise for other classes.
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I've seen on youtube this one person has made a whole bunch of builds, such as Stonespeakers, Skinchangers, or Thunderers, all of whom use dual throwing weapons. There are also staff using Bone Charmers, Templars, Haruspex's, or even mage Thanes, Paladins, Juggernauts, etc.
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Yes, many classes can be built in different ways. The main problem is how you spend your attribute points though. Do you concentrate on str/dex if you're a Juggernaut or do you go more intel/dex with very little str to boost the magical side of things. As I said it can be done, but you need to know what you're doing. If you look at the link I posted of Irma2's build ideas you'll see for example that he has 3 different Evokers: caster, auramancer and melee. Compare how he uses his skill points for the different builds.
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well with Ragnarok and Atlantis, you now have more skill points. With some builds I tried on an online calculator, I had so many skill points left after getting the important skills, that it feels like the build would be redundant. For example, a staff using Haruspex or Bone Charmer.
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Depends on what you call important skills, some can be one point wonders. And what end level were you looking at? With the disc version of the game, although the max cap is 75 it's rare to get anywhere near that unless you farm forever. I usually finished Legendary around 60-61. With the expansions I'd expect that to be in the mid-70s while the new cap is 85. But yes, if you don't want to use the new skills then your character level can be quite low.
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I have the Atlantis edition, so the maximum level for me is 85.
How do you know if a skill is a one-point wonder?
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Just by learning or reading guides. Defense's Battle Awareness for example is usually only taken with one point because you really want to max out it's synergies Focus and Iron Will.
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That person on Youtube who posted a whole bunch of builds is clearly using a mod that increases skill points cause I tried to make one of them on the Titan Quest Atlantic calculator taking into consideration the bonus skill levels from wearing certain items. So I think making those builds would be impossible without that mod, but seeing as how I am a purist, I don't want to use those kinds of mods. This means that classes made with the Hunting Mastery need to focus either on bows or spears, not both.
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Hunting can be played either way. Many people focus on the spear side giving that priority over the bow user side of things. For me Hunting is always bow first so while I may carry a spear as a second weapon I usually don't bother to put any points into spear skills. You can probably do both; it's just a question of what other skills you don't use instead from Hunting and whatever other mastery you pair it with.
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I've put together a list of the classes and the ways they can be built when you invest more in one mastery over the other. For example, the Conqueror uses both Warfare and Defense Mastery. Investing more in the Defense mastery will mean the Conqueror will fight melee with a shield. Investing more in the Warfare mastery will have him/her turn out more fighting with dual weapons. A Battlemage investing more in Earth will turn out like a mage whereas more investment in Warfare will have him/her as a dual melee fighter. For all classes using Hunting, I have one build for specializing primarily in bows and another in spears. For all classes using Nature, I have one build that focuses heavily on pets to deal damage. For both Warfare and Defense, I have a build for each resulting class that focuses on melee combat. Ternion for Spirit. Casters for Earth and Storm or physical or elemental melee or ranged fighters. Dual Throwing for Rune. Melee or Caster for Dream. Melee or Casters with Knives with Rogue. I came up with a total of 118 builds altogether!
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I've come to the following conclusions about which classes deal the highest damage for certain types combining skills that increase those types of damage or reduce enemy resistance to those damage types:
Physical - Conqueror, Harbinger, Champion, Guardian, Spellbreaker, Spellbinder, Battlemage, Juggernaut, Evoker, Berserker
Piercing - Brigand
Fire and Burning - Elementalist, Conjurer, Summoner, Stonespeaker
Cold and Frostburn - Oracle, Thunderer, Druid
Lightning - Oracle, Thunderer, Druid
Electrical Burn - Prophet
Poison - Illusionist
Bleeding - Brigand, Bone Charmer, Warlock, Corsair
Vitality - Diviner
Pet Damage - Summoner, Soothsayer, Ritualist
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I've learned that in the beginning, it is best to spend the majority of your skill points on your masteries, putting only one point into useful skills. Only once you have both masteries maxed should you start increasing your skill levels.
I found that for melee characters who use Defense as one mastery, that if you start with Defense, it is best to put one point each as soon as possible into Batter and Rend Armor for attacking multiple targets. A point each in Shield Smash, Disable, Pulverize, Shield Charge, Disruption, Adrenaline, Resilience, Defensive Reaction, Battle Awareness, Focus, Iron Will, and Colossus are also good.
By the way, I've noticed that certain skills have the same effect as others, so I'm wondering if one class that has access to both actually needs to include both of them for the build.
For example, Slayers have access to both War Wind and Spear Dance, both of which attack in a 360-degree circle. Guardians have access to Rally and Regrowth, both of which provide healing. Templars have Defiance for Rally and the Trance of Empathy which reflects physical damage back at your enemies.
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Depends, you can use one while the other is on cooldown. Shield Charge then War Wind then Shield Charge again for example. If you're making a build reflecting damage then yes, having both in the Templar class makes sense. Lots of different ways to build a character.
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I've updated my list of all possible builds I've come up with. Each class can be built in at least two different ways depending on which mastery gets more skill investment. For example, the Conqueror can be built either melee with a shield or dual-wielding. Obviously, the build that uses a shield gets more investment in Defense mastery whereas the dual-wielding version has more investment in Warfare. Maybe in a future thread, I should post this list.
One last question. I've read about attribute points and how they should be spent depending on your character build and style. How should I assign my stat points? Does the type of weapon I use depend on affect how I should spend my points? What about the type of damage I build my character around, does that determine how the stat points are spent? Should I reserve stat points or should I spend them as soon as I get them?
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It's pretty basic; intel boosts elemental damage, i.e. fire, cold and lightning so mage classes go mostly with that with some dex thrown in to equip items. If you're going to get into the middle of fights as a mage then going 1:1 intel:dex is better since you need good DA in those situations and dex boosts that. Nature and Spirit don't rely on intel for their spells which is why they're good for hybrid melee/ranged classes. For everything else it's str:dex. I usually go 1:1 str:dex, but you can also do 2:1 or 1:2 depending on your needs. A lot of people hang on to some attribute points just in case since they're not refundable ingame, but I never bother.
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Nature and Spirit don't rely on intel for their spells which is why they're good for hybrid melee/ranged classes.
Except vitality damage (Spirit and Dream) that relies on intelligence.
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um, if you only get 2 stat points per level, how do you go 2:1 when applying your skill levels? And is there a limit on how high your endgame stats should be? Does it depend on your endgame equipment? The type of weapon you use, such as a sword, axe, club, spear, bow, or throwing?
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Just keep a note of what you put into which one, that's the only way to do it. Endgame stats are governed by the equipment you want to use.
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um, if you only get 2 stat points per level, how do you go 2:1 when applying your skill levels? And is there a limit on how high your endgame stats should be? Does it depend on your endgame equipment? The type of weapon you use, such as a sword, axe, club, spear, bow, or throwing?
Max stats requirements in Legendary (for all types of items : unique, MI, common) :
Staves : 662 Int
Mage armor : 515 Int 206 Dex
Bows : 544 Dex 129 Str
Dex armor (Alfr MI...) : 538 Dex 206 Str
Spears : 504 Dex 208 Str
Throwing : 430 Dex 316 Str (Hati : 435 Dex 320 Str - doesn't drop)
Swords : 346 Dex 425 Str
Light Str armor (Tritons MI, Trolls MI, light armor to act IV, Discs of Mani...) : 436 Str
Shields : 564 Str
Axes : 208 Dex 583 Str
Heavy Str armor : 655 Str
Clubs : 662 Str
You can set your attribute points's distribution on those requirements up. That's what I do. I don't like to lack of stat points when I want to equip an item or to rely on -% requirements gear. So I choose a type of gear when I plan my build (e.g Dex armor, spear, buckler : I want 538 Dex and 564 Str for the end-game) and use the attributes points in order to match it.
But it's not the only (nor perhaps the best) way to manage it. Keep in mind there is plenty of -% requirements gear in end-game stuff. And items grant lot of attribute points by themselves. E.g staves give Int, melee armor give Str... Everyone use rings with +%Str or Int... (But Dex bonuses are less fequent than Int or Str ones).
So distribution models like 1:1, 2:1 allways perform very well.
The only difficulty is for hybrid builds.
And don't forget that items requirements aren't the only parameter for attribute points distribution : consider boosting the type of damage you deal, every type of toon can need Dex for DA, a small amount of health or energy if your masteries lack of it...
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So after using the Titan Quest Atlantis Calculator numerous times to plan various character, I've come to the following conclusions about certain builds:
-Any melee class using Warfare will need to limit their weapon choices to swords, axes, clubs, or throwing weapons due to Weapon Training increasing offensive ability and attack speed for those weapons only, unless they are a slayer using spears.
-Any warrior class using Hunting will need to limit weapon choices to bows, spears, or throwing weapons due to Wood Lore increasing defensive ability and attack speed for those weapons.
-Any melee class using Rogue will need to specialize in piercing damage due to how Calculated Strike, Lucky Hit, and Blade Honing work. They will also need to limit their weapon choices to swords or spears. High increases in attack speed are needed if you choose spears.
-Practically every rogue class demands you take advantage of Envenom Weapon and its synergies, with the exception of Toxic Distillation, unless you are specializing in maxing your poison damage.
-Casters who have Rogue as a mastery will use Throwing Knife with Flurry as a primary attack. With Earth and Storm as your other mastery, you'll need to increase intelligence to maximize damage. If your second mastery is any other, invest in dexterity to increase the damage of your knives.
-If Nature is one of your choices, wolves can be either be used to deter enemies' attention away from you or as your primary source of damage. If they are your primary source of damage, invest in skills that benefit their health, damage, defensive abilities, etc. Casters can use them to deter enemy attention away from them. Warriors also need them to boost their damage.