Author Topic: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion  (Read 58979 times)

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Offline Hector

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #45 on: 22 May 2019, 02:32:42 »
Quote
Storm - tested with a bow/spear lightning sage.

Lightning dash - movement ability like take down. No idea what is it doing in storm mastery, I'd rather asked for more reliable crowd control there.

Arc discharge - does not make wisp do any notable damage on a non-summoner when maxed. No idea how it would fare on a dedicated summoner.

Earth - tested with a physical battlemage.

Meteor rain - rocks fall in a large radius around you in random locations, physical and burn damage. Damage is poor on a physical caster for an ability with such cooldown. Inability to target makes it even worse, if it misses, you'll be waiting some 40 sec to try again.

Fire nova - don't have an appropriate fire caster in legendary to test this.

What the hell is this?? Is this a damn joke??
All this time, Earth had already CC skills while Storm did not, and this is their new content to make this game better? Still giving utilities to the former while adding stupid, meaningless skills to the latter?

I remember criticizing these trash devs back in the day for their schemes and unfortunately, most of the folks here had given me the cold shoulder for it.
It looks like now everyone is starting to see through this company's bull****. Better late than never, I guess..   

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #46 on: 22 May 2019, 03:09:53 »
@Hector , i was one of those.. apologies.. these devs doesn't know their game at all

@Prosoro , try running a squishy caster on late game legendary, using lighting dash for the sake of movement speed.. you just make yourself closer to dying.. chance to dodge will not help.. that's why i play on fully zoomed camera angle.. as a caster, you have to be careful and not just mindlessly rushing in

casters got the shorter end of the stick.. that much is obvious
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Offline mammoth_hunter

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #47 on: 22 May 2019, 11:28:55 »
Huh?  Squall is great for CC and Lightning Bolt isn't bad.
Yes, squall is not CC, thunderball and freezing blast are. Storm surge too. Thats a lot of CC skills in one mastery actually, but they are pretty terrible for a mastery called "storm". Thunderball is a small projectile on cooldown that is very easy to miss. Mobs actively avoid it by stepping to the side too when they see it. Freezing blast comes with a drawback of 80% damage adsorption for frozen mobs. And there are plenthy of stun and freeze immune mobs in the game, some are immune to both. Storm surge is a proc on taking hit so unreliable to build around. You can't, say, stun one particular pack of archers with it,  when they proc it with a single arrow from range, and then its on CD when you're close.

Compare it with menhir wall or core dweller that just work on anything. Or mandrake that also has no drawbacks if you use plenthy of weapon damage, and works on anything except bosses.

Its strange that something likes this happen when the community was involve in the first place. When they start recruit some long time player i was thinking that this Will have solve the most problem before It present itself  at the release. But It seams this isent the case. Maybe they Will need to open some poll for let the player choose what skill has to be modified and in what way.
Indeed, I have less time to play games than I'd like to now, but thought with community involved they will fugure something out in whatever they were doing. And yet they did not. How did that happened? Was community involved with the skill design at all? Or was it done in Ubisoft way, "We do what we want while the community is free to upvote it" - ?

@Prosoro , try running a squishy caster on late game legendary, using lighting dash for the sake of movement speed.. you just make yourself closer to dying.. chance to dodge will not help.. that's why i play on fully zoomed camera angle.. as a caster, you have to be careful and not just mindlessly rushing in casters got the shorter end of the stick.. that much is obvious
Evasion can actually work when stacked to around cap, 80%. If you stack it with dodge attack from warfare, you should see a notable damage reduction. But there are two issues still. Stacking evasion from gear is difficult, and more so than CTAP, so its not an easy to do thing in any case. And when the hit goes through evasion you take full damage. That means you still need other layers of defense together with it, to not get 1-2 shot by some mobs when using it. High DA, armor, damage absorption, damage reduction, etc. Of these, storm has physical damage reduction in squall and impaired aim, thats all, its incredibly fragile mastery. High cold and lightning absorption in energy shield since Ragnarok, but it sort of limited to these damage types.

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Offline legowarrior

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #48 on: 22 May 2019, 16:28:11 »
I am love the new Nature Skills!  That is a lot of fun for my illusionist.  Too bad my traps are just too good at taking out everything at this point. 

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #49 on: 23 May 2019, 03:20:25 »
to modders: how about this suggestion, if you really like lightning dash

since that 10 lighting damage is worthless anyway, how about remove that but instead it transmits/converts all weapon damage to lightning instead? that would really fit the name lightning dash, right? and it will now scale with static charge and eye of the storm

how the player will use a shield is up to the player.. pair it with rune or defense (armor handling).. equip lots of requirement reduction.. santa's shield.. or just use it with bow, if it works with bows.. last time i checked it works with thrown weapons
« Last Edit: 23 May 2019, 03:27:50 by botebote77 »
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Offline soa

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #50 on: 23 May 2019, 19:20:17 »
to modders: how about this suggestion, if you really like lightning dash

since that 10 lighting damage is worthless anyway, how about remove that but instead it transmits/converts all weapon damage to lightning instead? that would really fit the name lightning dash, right? and it will now scale with static charge and eye of the storm


how the player will use a shield is up to the player.. pair it with rune or defense (armor handling).. equip lots of requirement reduction.. santa's shield.. or just use it with bow, if it works with bows.. last time i checked it works with thrown weapons

Yes, that's what I suggested here.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #51 on: 25 May 2019, 11:04:28 »
more look at the skills:

meteor rain - i found my str + int earth + nature to really benefit from this.. first, the 2 reduced energy cost skills of nature really helps on the 400+ energy cost of meteor rain.. 2nd, meteor rain, refresh, meteor rain is deadly against both bosses and mobs.. but when i tried it in vanilla, there just aren't many mobs to justify this.. so it's only good in xmax.. but Atlantis does a good job of making the game slow to a crawl with xmax enabled, especially when casting meteor rain 2x.. but this character is currently unplayable because quick cast is broken for casters and when you disable quick cast, meteor rain forces you to click again even if it doesn't change the landing spot.. it's very clunky and this few seconds of delay can mean death to a squishy caster

but when i tried this and fire nova (300+ energy cost) on my elementalist, i had to use a pelaron just so i could cast them often.. staff of the cosmos reduces energy cost by 30% but meh squishy.. and you need str to justify using meteor rain anyway.. i have 300+ on my elementalist

unyielding phalanx isn't so bad even if they don't move because you can select where you place them.. this can be useful on a fully zoomed camera angle where the mobs won't see you but you can see them.. and yep i disabled quick cast.. also, if you stand beside them, mobs will follow you so they also get closer to the pets

perfect block - i know people say to use this against bosses and you have to time it perfectly.. but i find it too difficult to time.. but i found that at 80% CDR, the cooldown is only 2.1 secs.. the duration is 1.1 secs so if you spam this, there is only 1 sec of non-immortality.. i did this against 3 Hildisvini golden boars and also the mobs just after them.. the pets does a good job of killing the mobs whenever you can't attack because of perfect block spam.. very effective.. i also used this on the ichthian relic where, when you place it and the mini skeletons appear, the game becomes very laggy on any versions of xmax

it's also very good as a panic skill when your health becomes very low.. perfect block then immediately drinking potion can save you from certain death

edit: you need some cast speed for this.. i was using 2 sindris loop on my conqueror

lasting legacy - permanent ancestral warriors are OP.. +4 all skills and 80% CDR.. i could make my conqueror a petmaster.. but i find it still forces you to be part melee since you can't control the warriors and you have no briar ward to hide to.. maybe a petmaster slayer with monster lure.. those auras and the buff to CotH.. again, permanent ancestral warriors are OP

sadly, i just saw the imbalance more clearly and i lost my desire to play more.. yeah.. i know, i know.. I'm souring again.. hope the modders does a better job of balancing the game
« Last Edit: 25 May 2019, 11:29:59 by botebote77 »
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Offline gasconron

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #52 on: 27 May 2019, 08:13:21 »
Overall Impression on New Skills:

Given that they are the highest tiered skills in a mastery, they are expected to be awesome or game changing. However, most if not all, under perform to the expectations. A lot of them seem to diversify the current skill trees rather than act as an "ultimate"

Defense: Tested on Conqueror/Paladin/Juggernaut

1. Perfect Block - 100% absorption looks good on paper, the very short duration of the skill is questionable at best, which doesn't really offer any practical use. I'm not suggesting to increase duration to the levels of Stone Form as that would basically make any Defense-based melee unkillable (given the presumed sturdiness of the character), but at least to scale it to a level where in it can actually be used. One-Shot skills in this game (Barmanu Showers, Hades's BoD, Hydra Breath, Yaoguai Bleeds) last more than 1.1 sec. Imagine activating Perfect Block on a shower, absorbing it, only to die on the residual effect of the meteors bouncing on the ground, cuz 1.1 sec is up.  It doesn't scream "ultimate", more like "lol what-a-troll". Increasing max duration to 2.5 or even 2 seconds would make it more impactful.

2. Phalanx - seriously wth, this skill has no business being in the defense mastery. Not everything needs to synergize with a specific concept. If people want to play a summoner class, they can pick Defense 2ndary to increase their survivability. Just because that phalanx line has shields and armored soldiers doesn't mean it justifies it's existence in the mastery.  Even if you were to argue that casters that pick a Defense 2ndary can use this to kite and redistribute agro on to the Phalanx (assuming it does just that), what use does it have for melee? Absolutely Zero.

* 1 horrid concept and the other poorly executed. If Colossus was swapped to Mastery lvl 40 as the Ultimate Skill, I'll forgive it since it give 60% dmg absorp, some HP and a boost in % STR. It had what makes an ultimate skill (it was the "ultimate" pre-Atlantis), it had ooomphh, it had gameplay impact and it turned the tides of battle. These 2 new additions don't.

Warfare: Tested on Conqueror/Champion

1. Slam - just because it looks cool doesn't mean it's effective. While it looks like Dactyl's wave of pew-pew, doesn't mean it hits or works like it. Stun on it isn't as potent warhorn but the ~4 sec skill disrupt is pretty nifty. Had this been pre-Anniversary that 20 % life reduction would have been amazing and worth the 146 mana to activate it at max level. However, AE buffed life reduction resists on bosses and sub-bosses so much that I dropped "of Harrowing" on my ternion casters. This stat is absolutely useless in Legendary now, as an effect this skill doesn't deal nearly enough damage to justify its high mana cost (for melee) and it's place in the skill tree.

2. Lasting Legacy - Ancestral Horn is actually a good skill for summoners, when used in conjuction with Battle Standard + Triumph with Nature's SotP or Dream's Mastermind. Lasting Legacy actually earns it's spot as an ultimate skill (under the right circumstance) given how much it buffs the usability and effectiveness of Ancestral Horn. HOWEVER, what does it do for non-casters and non-summoners? Absolutely nothing. At best a melee-based toon will put 1 pt in ancestral horn as a tool for distraction, to avoid the initial agro of the boss or to buy time for himself in mob fights while he recovers. That extra seconds of living doesn't help anyone with a low investment on AC since duration increase means nothing if the summons are dead due to low HP.

Storm: Tested on Elementalist/Sage/Thane/Paladin

1. Lightning Dash - Solely for the use of a Hybrid Melee and a slap to the face of most Storm main users. Making an Ultimate skill for the use of the minority (melee hybrids) is a nonsensical decision. Why does this surprise despite the existence of Phalanx and Lasting Legacy? Late game with difficulty/spawn increase mods active, most casters don't scale well and need the utility and boost; Had this been made a designated or even random "blink"/phase/teleport skill that had a CtAP and CtDA % bonus decaying residual effect, that would have been a fitting ultimate skill.  But the fact that it needed a target for you to get to in MELEE range was an idiotic design made by someone who obviously didn't play this game and was oblivious to what casters needed to stay relevant end-game.

2. Arc Discharge - i didn't really notice it's relavance, which means it had very little to no impact on gameplay. For a lvl 40 mastery skill? come on...

Earth: Tested on Elementalist/Avenger/Battlemage/Juggernaut

1. Meteor Shower - decent damage to say the least, but the STR investment needed to scale up the skill dmg is a turnoff to casters, who are invested in INT due to most Earth skills scaling off INT. So when you use MS on a 100% INT caster, that ultimate skill doesn't hit like an Ultimate anymore. This skill was clearly designed for Hybrid melees that need more sources of dmg other than auto attacks, since their mixed stats produce little to no dmg in other skills in Earth tree. Irony is that most melee-hybrids also suffer from a naturally small energy pool which can't take much spamming/consecutive casting; and this skill is a mana hog. Unless I find myself facing a horde angrily rushing my squishy melee-hybrid, i wouldn't want to cast it in any other situation, even on boss fights. Imagine fighting a boss, and you needed to use stoneform, but couldn't cuz your manapot is on cooldown and Meteor Shower just  took your mana pool from 80% to 0. Call me a nitpicker, but I always play under Hardcore circumstances, stuff like this happen a lot more than one would like to admit. The damage/effectiveness of the skill does not justify the absurd mana cost of the skill which is already on relatively high cooldown. This skill has the potential to be an actual "Ultimate" skill, but it needs some tweaks to be deserving that status.

2. Fire Nova - On a caster, I actually like it. I have literally no complaints on this skill aside from the fact that it's not flashy enough. :D Full screen cast effect with a 360 degree FoV coverage. Decent damage scaling up until Legendary Act 4-5 (INT 1200+ caster) with relatively low CD (~4 secs) on capped CD reduction. When I first used this after being disappointed by other lvl 40 Mastery skill, i thought to myself: "this is what an ultimate skill should be like." It can be used practically by a caster, an auramancer or a melee hybrid.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 16:59:10 by gasconron »
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #53 on: 27 May 2019, 13:14:30 »
Imagine fighting a boss, and you needed to use stoneform, but couldn't cuz your manapot is on cooldown and Meteor Shower just  took your mana pool from 80% to 0.
yes absolutely.. but these things you only see when you actually play the game.. you just don't see it when writing theorycraft skills on paper

edit: and it's not just stone form.. it can be skills like distort reality, briar ward, flash powder, etc
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 13:29:52 by botebote77 »
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #54 on: 27 May 2019, 17:19:56 »
I have to confess, I have ArtManager open in my second monitor and I'm just doting on all this criticism of the new skills ! Keep it comin'!

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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #55 on: 27 May 2019, 19:42:57 »
some skills are clearly designed for hybrids.. but i bet if you ask these devs to make a hybrid and make it good till legendary, they don't know how to
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Offline soa

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #56 on: 27 May 2019, 20:35:00 »
Overall Impression on New Skills:

You don't need to have every skill good for every build. That's normal if Phalanx has no real use for melee builds, it's made for Defense summoners, it's on purpose that Meteor Rain is better for melee chars than casters (except for the cost, I agree), Lightning Dash isn't made for squishy casters, Lasting Legacy is made for summoners and doesn't have to offer a lot to other types of chars, etc. I find that perfectly normal that a skill may not be good for everyone as you don't have enough skill points to max every skill anyways.
This said, these skills need balance, and some of them have been placed on top of the trees but should belong to lower tiers.

For Perfect Block, it would need a larger CD if its duration is up to 2s, otherwise it would become too OP with -80% recharge.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #57 on: 27 May 2019, 21:30:18 »
You don't need to have every skill good for every build.
in most other rpg games this is probably true.. but for this game i would disagree.. you don't need out of place skills.. if you want to stray a little bit from the build, that's what dual classing is for
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #58 on: 27 May 2019, 22:26:45 »
in most other rpg games this is probably true.. but for this game i would disagree.. you don't need out of place skills.. if you want to stray a little bit from the build, that's what dual classing is for
I didn't say you need out of place skills (the definition of "out of place" being largely subjective). It's just that if every skill was good for every build then you wouldn't have to make strong choices. You would just have to max everything out, the only question being priorities between skills. It doesn't hurt to have different skills here and there, that are designed for specific use. TQ is lacking a bit of these kind of choices, you often feel like every skill is mandatory, like you're on rails and everything feels automatic.
If new skills make some unusual builds less exotic, that doesn't bother me at all.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #59 on: 27 May 2019, 22:34:46 »
seems like we just have different tastes then.. it's ok

me, i like it if i have to make choices.. you don't have enough skills to max everything so you end up trying different skills and see what suits your tastes.. do you max skill A and ignore skill B? or max skill B and ignore skill A? or perhaps 5 pts each? i like to make those kinds of choices

so in that sense, i like every skill to be good for every build.. then i will just choose what skills to get

edit: if you already know what skills to ignore, then that kills those choices
« Last Edit: 27 May 2019, 22:42:02 by botebote77 »
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