Titan Quest - Anniversary Edition > Atlantis

Opinions on new Atlantis skills?

(1/1)

Bloke:
It has surely been long enough to form opinions on the new skills (but not enough for nordic to finish atlantis  ;)), what do you think? Generally I think they are quite good with some significant outliers, I divide them into the Good, Bad and the Ugly:

Good as in good additions:
Defense: Unyelding Phalanx
It has been criticized that another ghost summoning skill is too much for the martial masteries, but I like the Phalanx. After Normal, the ghosts become rather powerful although they are no match for the menhirs in terms of blocking monsters. The maximum point amount is small and the cooldown reasonable even if you don't have a lot of CDR. With 80%, you can basically have a phalanx active at all times.  Good skill, I like it a lot. Bonus points for not requiring a shield but still being thematic.

Defense: Perfect Block
This is like an "active block" which is unusual for a game of this genre; the skill has no associated casting animation and goes off instantly when you use it, much like Nightmare or scrolls. With PB you can avoid damage from some choice attacks or spam it while running away. The movement speed bonus is rather strange and I don't know what its purpose is, and it doesn't allow you to go past the usual 166% cap. The skill description in the tree is unclear, but the uptime ratio does go up with more points. With ultimate level and 80% CDR, you can spam this and be invulnerable for most of the time. Since casting speed is easier to increase than attacking, a PB caster is quite viable. Once upon a time I thought this was the ultimate endgame of defensive building but now I see it's just another (new) choice among many. Another thing of note is that this is good for blocking Surtr's melee attacks if you don't have a high physical resistance, but I would leave farming Surtr for the PR characters.

Storm: Arc Discharge
This was nerfed a bit, but it still does a nice deal of damage and cements the Wisp as a very desirable and low-maintenance pet for any Storm character. There is an implicit requirement to put in a few points into the Wisp itself to unlock Thunderclap but this is still a very nice deal for Storm and compensates for how troublesome Lightning Dash is.

Nature: Earthbind
Generally, this is like Ensnare from Hunting but a lot better and easier to use. Its duration is very short unless you invest points into it though, so it's not a one-point wonder. The DA reduction enables some builds that otherwise have trouble getting enough OA. For ranged characters, the root itself is more useful. The poison seems really useless to me, because the duration just increases.

Earth: Fire Nova
I would think that a rather low-hitting burn would not be too impressive, but for some reason Fire Nova just works for me. The ring expands slowly but has a very large radius which works to wake up surrounding enemies and weaken them so following attacks kill them quicker. It never gets old using this in the skeleton ruins in Greece and watching the bones fly, revenge for Diablo burning up all my skeletons in D2  >:D
The impaired aim does not seem too significant to me, but is welcome for almost any Earth character.

Rune: Rune Field
Now, this isn't an easy choice. I don't actually go to 40 points on most of my Rune characters, but if you do want to use Runic Mines, I think this makes them worth the effort, although it is a point and energy hog; it's not crystal clear whether you want to increase the skill to its maximum level, I like that. Mostly, it's just funny seeing the enemies trip up on the runes even if they'll likely do only little damage each.

Dream: Psionic Beam
This is excellent, and really salvaged PT in my eyes, for any weapon. The skill says it only works for staves, but this is a half-truth. The different attacking animation and rapid-firing double tapping is only for staves, but the reduction of charge levels (down to 2 at level 8; every second attack is empowered) and the projectile speed and piercing for the empowered attack work for any weapon that applies.
For staves, I actually prefer this to Ternion, really, and they are more similar than you'd think, because both are more effective at melee range. Ternion bolts can all hit the same enemy, while PB's charges are built at maximum speed when travel time to target small enough. See, if you shoot a projectile with PT, and then shoot another before the first one has hit an enemy, the second one isn't empowered because the charge increments only when the attack hits. So by reducing the travel time, by either being closer to the enemy or having increased projectile speed, you can unleash charged attacks more often.
For thrown, this is kind of interesting, but I haven't tried it much to be honest. One thing you can do is a Dreamkiller attacking with a Gorgon's Edge and PB, so up to every second hit will pierce and have the increased total damage, which also increases the poison damage.. in theory..
This might be good for bows too, but to be honest, I think they are always too slow to be bothered with unless you have Hunting, in which case you'll likely want to use Marksmanship instead. (barring Onslaught or Rune weapon for building charges).
For melee, the piercing and projectile speed don't apply, but since there is no travel time, every second hit (at slvl 8+) is empowered, guaranteed. I think this is very decent and you might prefer it over Batter on a Templar, for example.

Dream: Dream Image
Well, it's a doppelganger. The summon time is short and you need maximum slvl and lots of CDR to have a good uptime, but if your character has a good doppelganger, then the dream image will work too. Dream is otherwise lacking in big cooldown skills for CDR characters. The dupe bug works for dream image as well, in 2.8 and before  ;)

Hunting: Spear Dance
This is basically a spear-only War Wind without the charging component, but hits the same enemy twice much like WW while dual wielding. There is also some fear proc in here. Hunting was lacking in AOE attacks for spears, but of course, we mustn't think that every mastery should be totally self-sufficient in every sphere of their specializations. Still, I like this. It is strange that both of the new Hunting skills are basically melee-only, but maybe the idea was that a ranged Hunting character would weapon swap to a spear and use this when enemies get close. I could think of better things to do with the weapon swap though, as a hint it begins with "C" and ends with "ooldown reduction".....  ;)

Warfare: Lasting Legacy
10/10 name. This does little to merit a whole new skill, really, but between lowering the CD on ancestral horn and increasing duration, I'll take the duration, because I want to be refreshing as few buffs as infrequently as possible. With the default lifetime, a good uptime on the ghosts is impossible with 80% CDR cap and this obviously works to correct that. Well, the ghosts still do garbage damage without boosts, but they are useful as distractions, since Warfare is a mastery with low defenses (in theory). I make it an effort to get switch CDR on a warfare character, but 100% uptime on the ghosts isn't a dead-set priority for me.

Rogue: Blade Barrier
A nice bit of crowd control, an alternate way to convey Envenomed Weapon effects and maybe even some damage, all on a reasonable CD. At first I was worried this was like the blade shield skill in Diablo 2, as in another buff that I have to refresh constantly, but the blades occupy a set space on the ground which works nicely and acts as a low-investment "trap". Good skill, I put 40 points into rogue every time just for this.

Rogue: Poison Mayhem
Let's be honest here, poison has little to do with the uses for this skill: while additional bombs really just increase the poison radius, and with the way that the aim is randomized, Shrapnel on the other hand works fantastically with brutal results. The classic is to throw a point-blank bomb with as many shrapnel bits hitting the target as possible. So all in all, a force multiplier for Shrapnel, strengthening the pierce or bleeding rogue, while ironically being not too useful for a poison rogue (in my opinion. Change my mind?)

Spirit: Soul Vortex
Life leeching was kind of a small aspect of Spirit previously, in contrast to its mission and description. This adds another way of doing that, and energy leech should you need that with Dark Covenant. The cooldown is reasonable as is the skill's overall power, much unlike Soul Drain.

The Bad, merely disappointing:
Nature: Sylvan Protection
So Earthbind was like a better Ensnare.. but Sylvan Protection is like a worse Earthbind, and both were introduced in the same expansion, and are at the same tier... ??????? To be honest, I scarcely even notice this skill being used, and it might just as well have been a pet skill built into the main one, like Thunderclap or Soul Blight, but for some reason it is a separate one. Maybe with the Piercing boost from Hunting, this could be good, but this really just has a presence of nothing to me. Some people still think the Nymph is bad, but I think Overgrowth works just fine.. well, I believe. So some addition to the nymph, considering it's supposed to be a powerful pet in a pet-focused mastery would not be a bad idea, but Sylvan Protection I just can't understand.

Earth: Meteor Rain
This is much like the Armageddon skill in Diablo 2, which is like a sustained buff that randomly fires some meteors in the general area around you. Only this one summons a volley of them, each doing HUGE damage. I can't emphasize the damage enough, seriously, it does so much damage. But the accuracy is very very random, and the cooldown a bit unreasonable. Well, if you are surrounded by enemies, maybe, but does that really happen that often in TQ? Moreover, it's not like Earth is really lacking in good AOE spells. So, since this does huge amounts of physical damage, and tiny burn damage, like a joke, it's better for strength characters, but for those, CDR is also harder to come by. So I think this is an awkward skill. I would like it to be targeted on a specific area, with a smaller radius of where the meteors drop, with a reduction of damage to go with the increased accuracy.
Also, I recommend not to use this during the Hildisvini fight, because he is liable to run off to the right and use the reflect shield while the meteors are falling, before being hit by two of them and instantly killing your character... Well, I heard from a friend that can happen...  ;D

Rune: Rune Storm
The effects are not very strong, unless maybe for the rare Strength Rune character, and the duration to cooldown ratio is unreasonable. The CC procs don't really seem to do much, especially skill disruption which overall seems useless against monsters to me. At least it doesn't require many skill points to max.

Warfare: Slam
I'm kind of torn between deciding whether this is a good skill or not, but it hasn't really impressed me. I think the main problem is that the projectile is very thin which makes it difficult to hit many monsters. I guess you could do some kind of Strength caster with this, building onslaught charges and then attacking with this and something else from the second tree, but I think it's simpler to just smash the monster with the usual attacks.

The Ugly, either unreasonably crappy or very overpowered:
Storm: Lightning Dash
Well.. where to begin? On paper this seems like an interesting skill. Dash from enemy to enemy, kind of like using Charge in Diablo 2. The movement mechanics in TQ just aren't fluid enough for this to work, as after you charge to the target, the character stops dead in his tracks and then performs a regular attack. As of now, doing this with LD is very janky. I don't know how the avoidances are supposed to work either, because if they only work while moving, they don't seem very useful to me because you'll rarely be hit while moving at +444% or whatever speed anyway.
The biggest problem though, is that LD is NOT A LMB SKILL despite what the description claims; procs like Volley don't work with it. This outright removes hopes of interesting synergies with classes such as Sage and Paladin, because LD itself is not strong enough to warrant abandoning the procs. So nordic's ridiculous ghetto fix was to add a 0.5 sec cooldown to LD... so every second strike is normal and therefore works with procs. Really??? Why not just make the skill itself work with procs. Engine limitations? The last bit is the effect. Now LD has some weird proc, at ultimate level, 32% chance of +200% total damage and some silly freeze. So is this supposed to be a LMB, a 0-cooldown charge, or what? If you want to use LD viably, there is a laundry list of requirements, implicit and explicit:
-class should not be clearly stronger by using a different attack, which would undermine the use of LD to begin with
-must have enough cooldown reduction so every strike is a LD
-must not attack fast enough so LD has time to cooldown (natural conundrum with archmage's clasp...)
-must have good OA for melee
Among others, which I'm surely forgetting. As a small good point, LD can be used with staves, which might potentially be interesting. But overall, I think LD should have been immediately scrapped in development when it was first tested in-game and it became apparent that it just doesn't work on a conceptual level in this game.

Hunting: Finesse
COTH gets a HUGE OA boost, and a useless life reduction proc... Well, a hunting character should have 100% uptime on COTH anyway, so basically just a HUGE OA boost. This doesn't really do anything for ranged characters, Spear Dance doesn't either. Why is this? I think that there should be at least one desirable skill in a tier for any character, especially for the last tier. As for melee, this is just a massive overkill. Hunting already could deal with OA by Ensnare and Flush Out, but this is just ridiculous. Well, I'll be sure to take screens of the crits on a spear brigand after I find a good Blacksteel Spike, but this still just feels like a skill that makes the strong stronger instead of buffing previously disappointing aspects or creating new playstyles.

Spirit: Soul Drain
Oh dear. While previously I was wholly unimpressed with Life Reduction, then came along Soul Drain. The concept of buffing Life Drain is good, since it's theoretically a mastery-defining skill but which dealt disappointing damage and the healing was huge overkill compared to the max life of most characters, while not being very useful because you can bet I'll instantly drink a potion instead of casting Life Drain if I'm low on health.
But the problem is that Soul Drain is not as much about draining but nuking. Eradicating. Annihilating. Destroying. The synergy is so childishly obvious I'm amazed it wasn't and still hasn't been changed: Necrosis reduces Vitality resistance a huge amount. Soul Drain does a huge amount of AOE Life Reduction. Get the hint? So right now, with ANY spirit character, the salient question is this: how does the second mastery help my playstyle of running next to the enemy, using Spirit Drain and looting the corpse? The funniest part is, because the damage is Life Reduction, you don't need any stats for it. I have  a Soothsayer character relying on pets and Soul Drain, and notably having ALL stat points put into health, and he still basically kills everything in one hit with Soul Drain.
The fun of character building in TQ for me is combining disparate aspects to  synergize them, whether it is different masteries or items. But with Soul Drain, the ""synergy"" is entirely contained within the same mastery and is so very, very easy to do on any applicable character that it becomes ridiculously, tastelessly OP. While Finesse is on the same "tier" as Soul Drain, I do think that SD deserves an entirely separate tier of cheesiness.

lixiss:
As this topic is opinion-like, i'm may share own opinions (or complains - in sense of this topic is no matter). Some of them may turn you into different think of.

Generally i'm think what no any of 7-tier skills gives nothing really valuable or interesting in Atlantis. The problem is not only with skills itself, but with their balance too. Skill balancing - is most of complex part of this game, mostly for game creators, because they decided not give any way to alter them with difficulty - and this results in tempting choices. And at same time - if we back to Atlantis - new tier skills gives yet another AOE damage what deal another of X damage, and there is no matter what it is 7 tier skill - they even not balanced over cooldown times nor balanced in terms of usability nor has stronger requirements. Skill tiers built as they was built with great compromise - 1-6 tiers reachable pretty early, however (in my opionion) they should require more investments. But they not only add next tier which has same requirements as 6 tier (tier requirements = skill points = 5=>6 => requires 8 points. 6=>7 also requires 8 points. Why?). I know why - because leveling and tiers and absence of innate support of skill level requirements disallow you to limit you, and in same time allow you one-hit anything what you see early if you get right mastery and do right investments. So the problem, what next tier skills are achievable too early (original TQ also has issue too). So, they tried to make ultimate skills and most of time they fail on this road. There is exist two major factors: from game mechanics they doesn't contribute nothing valuable in many cases (take into account what overall complexity was greatly decreased in AE...). Second major factor - most of this skills looks like most of skills from modders - they are have horrible looking, they are have horrible sounds. The difference, what - modders is limited and not "official" peoples and there is not possible complain for them in that sense, but... look on "Fire Nova" - this, like many other skills has horrible FX. Just horrible FX. I'm doesn't take in account what it do, but generally all of this new skills are useless or has horrbile FX which you doesn't want to see on own screen. Just compare this with "Cosmic Nebula" from Shadow Champions. Skill have new look, really new mechanic which you never meet nor in TQ nor in GD. I'm yesterday run (finally) original TQIT, and was impressed (nearly shocked, because forget this) how simple things was overcomplicated. Very! tiny stash, tiny transfer, no separate stash for relics - tiny is everything, and no on-ground comparison, no locking item names on ground, you always need press buttons, also tiny (as always) backpack space - so generally - in first place - game was stupid limits (at least in modern world). If you will play it fair with self-found chars... And if you doesn't know about item requirements which you have 99% chance never meet - you are in big trouble in original TQ. Looting also was horrible... Pressing on every gold piece without A? Oh... So, i'm very like how many QoL improvements was done in TQAE with many game engine aspects including performance, and allowing wider modding easier.

However, in terms of game content - it is not shine in every way. Accomplished Hero? Try level 40 builds which can beat nearby monsters without equipment. Money is not enough. Items from shop are mediocre anyway. But you start even with not enough money to equip yourself *sensible*. (There is enough to equip self for something, but rarely to equip fully and met build/character.) I'm personally doesn't see any good use of accomplished hero, especially, if you play without pre-farmed gear. And even if you do this - you anyway can't teleport back to previous areas (which you may want to do if you miss something before, like important charm). Does this can be considered as good mechanics or improvement? No, it is can not. Ability to create level 40 character in nowhere - is nothing. Substitute self for child/young who play in game first time and choose this option... meh. I personally think - there is weird mechanics, supposed to make life easier, but actually doesn't do it. It may help with time, but again, i personally dislike level up my heroes from somewhere instead from level 1. What help with time? Enable developer console and give so many things as you want. :) This will help with time, but at same time ruin gameplay. There is equal option to "accomplished hero".

Also this is game about few things: being luck and get right items (without farming), or farming items. In any way you will end to items. On top of this, some classes require shop-farming - and it is also not funny in any way. The ideal game balance - is when player continuously progress over content, instead of do farming. There is rule. Farming is always annoying. More over - original game area level limits says what it is never was supposed to farm (and overleveling).

However, game has very stupid balance, especially on higher difficulties. The problem is not in numbers which difficulty rises, but how this was achieved. If you think what epic satyr is not level 2-4 monster - you are lie self. It is exactly same 2-4 monster as it was in normal. It only buffed with more health regen, more health and may get better skills. And this done for EVERYTHING.

Game has locational damage. It works for everyone. You know, 40% for chest, and 20% for rest pieces. But game engine allow to have other things "FullyProtected" and "FullyUnprotected" hits (this is not used - chances for this hits are 0%). What the problem? Problem is what it was designed. It was implemented. It was not used. It was not used, because any bonus armor protection, like defense mastery provide, or like monster's armor protection (all monsters has armor - passive skill which give bonus) - is implemented in what way, what "fully unprotected" hits is impossible when you have any bonus armor. This is game about numbers, but numbers, mechanics and making it more clear (visible) - was never done.

There is exist lot of technical issues, like above. However... there is still good "old" TQ. And personally, i'm prefer TQ over GD. GD is awesome and mechanically better than TQAE in every piece. But, i'm dislike setting. Every new char in TQ gives feel of new breath, but GD is not. (I'm completed GD with 2 chars actually, few years ago, one of them was very easy - on-will high health regen mechanics, same as in TQ - solves almost all issues.)


> Defense: Unyelding Phalanx

Defense is fighter-like mastery, which by some reason has no any summons. At same time Warfare mastery (which logically opposed) even worse - instead of physical fighter you get spell caster with limited summons without reason. So, generally, Unyelding Phalanx - is only make Defense be able weak summoner. By weak - i'm mean - it is weak, in terms what it is temporary summons. Practically it is not summon at all, it is spell with complex mechanics.

> Defense: Perfect Block

It is make no any difference in game. This skill looks cool and works cool. However, duration is pathetic to worry about this skill at all. Also, i'm should not what shield mechanics in terms of blocking damage is wrong in first place. Shield when it block should always reduce damage, regardless to damage number. Yep. Otherwise - this even more turns shield as bonus holder. In game really only defender can break this rules, but this is another confirmation of broken rules: in most of combinations - this item just bonus holder. At same time defender with or without "ultimate" perfect block skill - is strong enough. Surely it can be used, but it has no sense. It is one of worsted skill in whole game: if you has choice and pick nuking skill instead of this - you will end with much better result. However, main complain about this skill - duration of this skill is not worth to even try assign it to hot key.

> Storm: Arc Discharge

I'm never care about what damage storm wisp do. Goal of storm wish is tanking, and it do his work and even do some damage. Useless.

> Nature: Earthbind
> Earth: Fire Nova
> Rune: Rune Field

Generally i'm doesn't see any need in this skills. First, FX is weird in first two. Second - if you played in GD, then you may know what Olexra's Flash Freeze is better. There is lessen versions of this. :) Yes, cold/freezing is the best! :P
To be serious - do you need skill which capable CC/mediocre damage skill, which capable do it for "full screen of monsters"? You anyway doesn't get it, with them. And more important - it doesn't needed in terms of gameplay. Generally skills fine, but Fire Nova should be 200-500% faster. Rune Field is less problematique, but all rune things including new items done by deaf idiots, because most of this skills are cry, relative to environment or other skills. Hey, guys, you doesn't have enough flashes on the screen? No! Hear them now! (Armlets of Fretya continues this good tradition - this is one of the worsest items in terms of on-hit effects over last 20 years...)... mechanically it is good, but would you like hear this fucking siren every ten seconds? I'm - not.

> Dream: Psionic Beam

Why not enhance at least bows, like other mods? I'm actually never see this good... staves. Meh. In my vision - Dream is pure melee mastery, which designed to be innately complement each other mastery, except Rune (because was created before rune mainly.)

> Dream: Dream Image

Another fucking summon.

> Hunting: Spear Dance

Hunting mastery should not exist completely.

It has OP skills with OP skills with OP skills with also somehow connected with bow, without any sense. The problem what bows in results become greatly underpowered for every other user, and excels only in hands of this mastery. There is okay when mastery gives some bonuses or unique benefits for weapon - but - then ALL masteries should have "choosen" weapons trait. But in fact, - hunting is bow buffing mastery with strong debuff skill. Meh. There is one of baddest masteries in game in terms of game balance. (As note on the fields, i'm should say what centaur rangers should apply own debuffs at least 2x slower or de-spelling/nullification mechanics also should be changed -> they, especially small pack in 5-10 centraurs will spawn on you his debuffs like idiots, and you can't do ANYTHING against. But to be fair - they itself doesn't have problem, it is hard to die under their fire - but it good example how some skills in game badly works.)

However, Spear Dance can provide some complementing AOE attack if class miss it. But, i'm agree - it is doesn't look good.

> Warfare: Lasting Legacy

Pseudo-fighter learned how to bind their summons longer. Meh. It is not even thematic, it is just bad. Peoples doesn't like skills which improve exactly one-two parameters. :P

> Rogue: Blade Barrier

I would say what "Blade Barrier" from GD - is awesome skill if used right, and doesn't look bad. But TQAE's Blade Barrier i'm wish to never see on my screen under any condition. There is enough to not pick skill.

> Rogue: Poison Mayhem

Has nice properties. But seems too weak for 7 tier, chances too low for impair aim, and being slow skill this means what you will be pierced through your hero body 2-3 times before this chances even take into effect. (Never tried it, i like poison bomb when played with rogue, used it as RMB skill a lot.) But, again, i agree, and as above - no big changes.

> Spirit: Soul Vortex

Tried this skill and has mixed feeling. I personally think what it is bad. In numbers it looks strong, but it is designed to be ultimate skill. This is AOE. There is good. There is big CR. Everything is good, except you doesn't need kill 100 monster's at one time, and bosses at same tile will resist like hell (making it virtually useless).

---

> Storm: Lightning Dash

This skill touched some times in last years... In fact - this is very powerful skill. For first: not every mastery has active skill at all. For second: it has chance for +200% damage which solves lot of questions. And additionally it is low-investment skill (6 points). This skill also can be used without investments, like cheap movement skill. For example Defense+Strom => great movement skill. Also, this skill is universal - it is applied for any weapon (for example when defense cover melee skills - it would be better dash with this skill for ranged attacks). Definitely this skill should be improved. There is was, in my taste - successful enough attempts. LoC:Atlantis mod has big improvements over this skill, or using charging mechanics for this would also work. Or it may doesn't needed even altered too much - it just should have better chances and bigger CD (4-6 seconds).

But, regardless to this - for melee char - there is excellent skill. In practice ability to almost teleporting every 0.7 second is huge advantage over mobs. This allows you target to most dangerous creature and burst out your skills. Yes, something like shield charge going similar, but 12 seconds vs 0.7 seconds it is very huge.

In practice, i'm strongly believe what there is should not exist active skills below 4 seconds CD. And here another problem - is CDR. CDR break all of them. Most skills should be 4-6-8-10-12 and even 16 seconds without be able turn skill into spammable. For example 16 seconds Phantom Strike - perfectly balanced (balanced about what?). If CDR cap is 80% - then 16 is perfect. But, if CDR cap is 25% - then 16 is too much. Both values is not perfect, because you end with long CD which can be reduced to somewhat you can use regularly. Or you end with OP char who do things 2-3x faster and spam skills. There is pure complaining - there is weak game design. Game speed / attack speed + epic/legendary buffs -> same for here. Game throws buffs on you, and shrink you faster in bit more ways, but there is not necessary. Does any one image what ~125% attack speed looks best? Does anyone imagine what 150%+ attack speed what hero strikes with weapon like idiot?...

Huh...

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