Author Topic: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion  (Read 58993 times)

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Offline WNG

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #60 on: 27 May 2019, 22:52:00 »
i like every skill to be good for every build..

Do you think it was the case Pre-Atlantis?

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #61 on: 28 May 2019, 00:03:21 »
i like every skill to be good for every build..

Do you think it was the case Pre-Atlantis?
i play casters so I'll only speak for casters.. I'd rather not touch on melee and archer builds as i don't play them often enough

yes for casters.. for example for storm, you are often presented with the choice to go lightning or ice shard build.. lightning scales with static charge and ice shard scales with heart of frost.. those costs too many skill points that you often have to choose between the two.. then there is another choice of getting both but if often comes at the expense of other good skills, sometimes largely ignoring your 2nd mastery

i am aware that people largely ignore thunder ball.. but it's not that it's useless, it's just hard to use/target.. it just needs some tweaking.. people also don't like freezing blast but me i put 1pt on that.. it's a good panic skill and it works very well against dactyl

earth - VO + eruption or flame surge? go mostly offensive and ignore core dweller or spare some points on core dweller? or maybe flame auramancer? although i don't know how effective this could be in endgame as I've never tried it.. but lots of choices and all can be useful

dream - i often just choose between distort reality and distortion wave.. if i put points on both, i don't max them both.. and even if i play melee, i still choose at least one of these skills

in AE + Rag, I've only played nature 2x, summoner and illusionist.. but in both those builds, I've put at least 1pt on all nature skills.. can't say about Atlantis, i don't play it (edit: nature is good support for casters)
« Last Edit: 28 May 2019, 00:14:19 by botebote77 »
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Offline gasconron

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #62 on: 28 May 2019, 05:05:17 »
You don't need to have every skill good for every build. That's normal if Phalanx has no real use for melee builds, it's made for Defense summoners, it's on purpose that Meteor Rain is better for melee chars than casters (except for the cost, I agree), Lightning Dash isn't made for squishy casters, Lasting Legacy is made for summoners and doesn't have to offer a lot to other types of chars, etc. I find that perfectly normal that a skill may not be good for everyone as you don't have enough skill points to max every skill anyways.
This said, these skills need balance, and some of them have been placed on top of the trees but should belong to lower tiers.

For Perfect Block, it would need a larger CD if its duration is up to 2s, otherwise it would become too OP with -80% recharge.

I can forgive everything else, even Phalanx whose existence I am reluctant to accept. But Lightning Dash, is a step too far bordering inconsideracy. Typical (STR) Melee Hybrids with a storm 2ndary generally don't  need this kind of utility. With enough ADCtH and a max+4 squall on top of your head, you can out-heal damage taken provided your not in mage gear, - resists, or a DA below 800. Even if you agro'd a horde in xMax. The only practical use I see for this skill is when you get yourself in big trouble and you target a stray archer/mage to get yourself out of that trouble. Using this skill like Charge, to close out distance between you and your intended target is "all flair and no substance."

All the bonus stats you get temporarily suggest that this was intended to be a safety skill, why not make it universally usable? You read the complaints from the previous posts, people are irked the Storm was gifted with the worst 2 new skilsl when everyone was screaming for a CC skill that is actually usable. Thunderball is hard to use efficiently while Freezing Blast is counter-productive. I interpret that as an actual need of defensive utility skill, rather than a need for actual CC.

When compared to the other "caster-based" classes, you could argue that Storm is one of the masteries lacking in defensive utility options that are actually effective.
1. Dream - Trance of Convalence, Temporal Flux, Lucid Dream, Distort Reality, Distortion Wave, Sands of Sleep
2. Earth - Stone Form, VO + Fragmentation (Defense on Offense), Heat Shield (Dmg Resistance & Fire Absorption)
3. Nature - HotO, Briar Ward, Heals, Refresh, Plague (slow, dmg reduction), Earthbind
* these masteries have strong sustain and CC utility skills.

----
4. Storm - Thunderball, Lightning Strike, Freezing Blast, Storm Surge, Energy Shield, Squall -
a. TB and LS have too small of a radius to be effective
b. Freezing Blast gives frozen peeps massive dmg reduction, so there is literally no followup to your CC
c. E Shield only works with Cold and Lightning, incomparison to Heat Shield that has dmg resistance% that is a more common problem for casters than other sources of dmg, Storm gets the short end of the stick.
d. Storm Surge is great for Melee Hybrids who is ok with getting hit, but on casters wanting to get hit for a chance to proc my defensive skill is a really bad deal.
e. Squall - literally the only reason why Storm is not at the bottom of the ladder in terms of Defensive Utility. One of the best defensive utility skills in the game, but not nearly enough to scale well into late-game.

5. Spirit - Ravages Tree, Sprit Ward, Death Ward - mastery with the worst defensive utility... but the fact that ADCtH % + Ternion allows this class to face-tank anything and everything, one can ask; does it actually need it?

Lightning Dash could have been the skill that Storm actually needed but was never given, because they opted to discriminate and design it in favor of melee hybrids.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2019, 05:09:27 by gasconron »
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Offline soa

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #63 on: 28 May 2019, 20:31:15 »
me, i like it if i have to make choices.. you don't have enough skills to max everything so you end up trying different skills and see what suits your tastes.. do you max skill A and ignore skill B? or max skill B and ignore skill A? or perhaps 5 pts each? i like to make those kinds of choices
Don't take me wrong, I like choices too and I am not really satisfied with the masteries design of Atlantis.
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills). Plus a lot of skills are not good enough for most builds, or some of them only deserve like 1 point. So I felt like the skill choices were really limited. You could end up in Legendary spending your points in skills you were not really needing.
Now it's a bit better because you have 8 points more in bars, not everybody will find use in the new skills though.
I prefer like in SV were you have even more mastery bar points to spend and even more skills. That way you have to let go on some skills or really have low level skills (strong choices then), and it doesn't hurt in this case to have a few exotic skills.

edit: if you already know what skills to ignore, then that kills those choices
It doesn't matter if you already know at level 1 that a skill isn't good for your build. There was indeed a choice when you choose an "archetype" (like caster, melee, summoner, etc) after choosing a dual class.
There is no choice when a skill is bad for every build, and in a sense when no one puts more than 1 point in a skill. In these cases, balance or design have a problem.
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #64 on: 28 May 2019, 21:32:34 »
The only practical use I see for this skill is when you get yourself in big trouble and you target a stray archer/mage to get yourself out of that trouble. Using this skill like Charge, to close out distance between you and your intended target is "all flair and no substance." All the bonus stats you get temporarily suggest that this was intended to be a safety skill, why not make it universally usable?
I think it's primarily made for comfort, not actual safety, and it does increase the clearspeed, especially for a slow char. Melee are sometimes kinda slow and that skill quickens the pace of the game for melee, I think it's welcomed for a Paladin or even Sage because of the lack of LMB skill. Granted it's a niche skill.
You suggested a teleport with a residual duration of dodge/CtAP. Why not, it would need a bit of cooldown though (not sure if its moddable) otherwise you would be untouchable.
Or maybe they could have make LD with a cooldown and a dodge duration after attacking, that depends on the length of the charge. It would have been a little more interesting to use.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #65 on: 28 May 2019, 22:13:47 »
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills).
agreed.. upping the mastery bar to 40 was maybe the only thing i liked about the update

i have to be honest, i don't even have the game installed right now.. this blatant show of disrespect towards casters, to say that I'm disappointed is an understatement.. and seeing the modders got some problems with the updates.. i decided to not have the game installed for now.. but i still visit the forum regularly to read comments and chat a little bit.. perhaps over time i will have a cooler head and not be a constant sourgrape.. but i stand by my criticisms towards these devs

about lightning strike, i thought about this on a paladin but defense is defensive enough.. and with some CDR, I'm not sure I'll take it over batter as LMB.. and I'm not even sure it will be better than the old caster paladin build.. sage, a hybrid melee spear? i think I'd rather go with @mammoth_hunter 's bow elemental sage
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Offline WNG

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #66 on: 29 May 2019, 01:26:25 »
But in Ragnarok before Atlantis, it was kinda worse because there were too many skill points (more levels than IT, but same mastery bars and skills).
agreed.. upping the mastery bar to 40 was maybe the only thing i liked about the update

i have to be honest, i don't even have the game installed right now.. this blatant show of disrespect towards casters, to say that I'm disappointed is an understatement.. and seeing the modders got some problems with the updates.. i decided to not have the game installed for now.. but i still visit the forum regularly to read comments and chat a little bit.. perhaps over time i will have a cooler head and not be a constant sourgrape.. but i stand by my criticisms towards these devs

about lightning strike, i thought about this on a paladin but defense is defensive enough.. and with some CDR, I'm not sure I'll take it over batter as LMB.. and I'm not even sure it will be better than the old caster paladin build.. sage, a hybrid melee spear? i think I'd rather go with @mammoth_hunter 's bow elemental sage

I'm not going to disagree with you, as the changes haven't affected me in particular (since I only play one character.) However, I can't resist to wonder why you feel like the developpers had bad intentions? I don't think they added skills to directly disrespected anyone... Maybe a lack of knowledge, if we can call it that way?

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #67 on: 29 May 2019, 02:14:46 »
Maybe a lack of knowledge, if we can call it that way?
yeah.. ok.. I'll call it that.. still, ignorance with their own game is a dev crime .. if there is such a thing
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #68 on: 29 May 2019, 07:21:49 »
just some thoughts.. but first, this lacks proper testing so i might be missing some things here

arc discharge - enhances thunderclap ability of wisp

in other words, it only activates when your wisp is at least lvl 5, right? but putting 4 additional skill points on wisp feels like a waste right? granted, it's not too difficult to get +4 all skills.. but a skill that only activates when you have +4 is... well.... icky

also, there are mastery shrines scattered throughout the game and the wisp don't die easily.. but what if it does then you have to wait to get another mastery shrine just so the wisp can use it.. act 4 plains of judgement, the wisp dies there easily.. also iirc act 5 against jotuns

then a lesser issue.. it deals elemental damage so in order to get the most of it is you equip elemental pet rings.. but what other permanent pets deal elemental damage? core dweller and? as said in another thread, lich king does not benefit from flat elemental damage from pet rings except when it casts arcane blasts.. but the liche does not cast it often enough to justify wearing elemental pet rings.. and who would build a petmaster oracle anyway? the nymph has poor target AI and the wolves benefit mostly from physical pet rings because of SotP.. although this is lesser issue because you can still play elemental damage traps and perhaps getting your doppelganger to deal elemental damage

the stun may be of use.. maybe? storm still needs a reliable CC that you can cast at will though.. and back to above.. you still need +4 or else you don't get any benefit from it
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #69 on: 29 May 2019, 12:10:51 »
If I'm not mistaken, if you use a Mastery Shrine and summon a pet while under its effect, the pet will be of higher level, but it won't lower down when the effect wears off.

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #70 on: 29 May 2019, 12:20:05 »
If I'm not mistaken, if you use a Mastery Shrine and summon a pet while under its effect, the pet will be of higher level, but it won't lower down when the effect wears off.
yes.. i said that, but not directly.. i just assumed everybody knows it already.. but a skill that only activates when you find a mastery shrine? that loses some appeal.. and it doesn't have much appeal to begin with

and even as early as act 1 it has a high chance of dying against shadowmaw and telkine
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #71 on: 29 May 2019, 12:27:22 »
I see your point, and could understand why it's a bit clunky, but I guess it gives another the wisp another purpose other than a buffer. It's situational, doesn't fit every build. I don't think the skill itself bad, but its placement is. It could've swapped with Eye of the Storm IMO, even though devs can't do such things without messing everyone's characters.

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #72 on: 29 May 2019, 12:33:53 »
just some thoughts.. but first, this lacks proper testing so i might be missing some things here

arc discharge - enhances thunderclap ability of wisp

in other words, it only activates when your wisp is at least lvl 5, right? but putting 4 additional skill points on wisp feels like a waste right? granted, it's not too difficult to get +4 all skills.. but a skill that only activates when you have +4 is... well.... icky

also, there are mastery shrines scattered throughout the game and the wisp don't die easily.. but what if it does then you have to wait to get another mastery shrine just so the wisp can use it.. act 4 plains of judgement, the wisp dies there easily.. also iirc act 5 against jotuns

then a lesser issue.. it deals elemental damage so in order to get the most of it is you equip elemental pet rings.. but what other permanent pets deal elemental damage? core dweller and? as said in another thread, lich king does not benefit from flat elemental damage from pet rings except when it casts arcane blasts.. but the liche does not cast it often enough to justify wearing elemental pet rings.. and who would build a petmaster oracle anyway? the nymph has poor target AI and the wolves benefit mostly from physical pet rings because of SotP.. although this is lesser issue because you can still play elemental damage traps and perhaps getting your doppelganger to deal elemental damage

the stun may be of use.. maybe? storm still needs a reliable CC that you can cast at will though.. and back to above.. you still need +4 or else you don't get any benefit from it
- Yes, at least Wisp lvl5 so Arc Discharge skill can have effect on Wisp's Thunder Clasp.
But why you spend any point to Arc Discharge skill if you don't intent to play pet build or want Wisp deal dmg for you? I mean, if you want to Wisp deal dmg for you, so you must be lvl up Wisp skill. As high as Wisp lvl up, Wisp tougher. If you just want Wisp have CC skill to provoke enemies for you, so no need to spend any point to Arc Discharge.
- There are items that + All skills/Storm Skills/Wisp skill, so if you want you still can get lv5 Wisp with just 1 skill point spent into Wisp.
- Liche King default attack still get benefit from +% Elemental dmg for pets, i tested already. Like with max lvl+4 Liche King, his default attack deal 411 dmg ( Purple color) on dummies at Sparta Camp. With 2xAlfather Jewel ring +100 elemental dmg * 15%, total is +30% elemental dmg, now he deal 465 dmg on dummies. So clearly there is something "incorrect" with this pet.
- Outsider get benefit from +flat elemental dmg.
- Why not Pet Oracle? You don't want not mean all people don't want.
- Wolves good with physical dmg, but when facing Hades 3rd form, equipped items that +flat elemental dmg is better than stick with +flat/%physical dmg.
- Doppleganger from scale dmg by character, not pets.

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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #73 on: 29 May 2019, 12:41:17 »
well, as i said, i don't play the game anymore.. i don't even have it installed right now.. so a question @icefreeze , is it worth any point? just lvl 1? or if it's worth more points, at what lvl does it deserve more points?
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Re: Atlantis new skills feedback and discussion
« Reply #74 on: 29 May 2019, 12:46:56 »
well, as i said, i don't play the game anymore.. i don't even have it installed right now.. so a question @icefreeze , is it worth any point? just lvl 1? or if it's worth more points, at what lvl does it deserve more points?
Arc Discharge boost Thunder Clasp dmg and spread to enemies nearby, so if you play pet builds, you should increase it to increase AOE dmg of Wisp.

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