Author Topic: random thoughts  (Read 309 times)

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Offline botebote77

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random thoughts
« on: 20 January 2023, 02:31:20 »
bows always hit. they don't rely on dexterity to hit. dexterity means hand-eye coordination. even if you have shitty dex (reduced requirements maybe), bows will always hit

meanwhile, close combat weapons need dexterity to hit. if you have shitty dex, you won't be able to hit in legendary

just what is harder to use in real life? lol. even if you don't have training, you'll still be able to hit what is right next to you with a sword or club. archery on the other hand needs serous training in order to hit your targets. yet in this game, this is the weapon that never misses

i know about crits. i was talking about real life comparisons rather than mechanics
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Offline Cleglaw

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Re: random thoughts
« Reply #1 on: 21 January 2023, 12:08:06 »
"just what is harder to use in real life? lol. even if you don't have training, you'll still be able to hit what is right next to you with a sword or club."
If the person with whom you are fighting is well trained, you will not be able to hit them. They will parry or evade your attack.

"archery on the other hand needs serous training in order to hit your targets."
True, especially with a moving target. Less true with a stationary target.
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Offline botebote77

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Re: random thoughts
« Reply #2 on: 21 January 2023, 21:52:51 »
i don't know much about bows. but we used to play a lot with pellet guns back in high school. so much that we play war games hitting each other. yes they hurt lol. depending on the distance but usually it still takes me a few tries before i hit even a stationary target. i used to play with makeshift hand to hand weapons to and no way I'm missing even if my target tries to dodge  O0

edit: parry is different though. of course i miss when my opponent parries. but parry is blocking. in this game, you still miss even if the monster isn't wearing a shield or even weapon. you still miss even if they don't do anything
« Last Edit: 21 January 2023, 22:05:45 by botebote77 »
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Offline Cleglaw

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Re: random thoughts
« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2023, 00:26:44 »
I used to be a fencing coach - foil and epee. I guarantee you that if I fenced somebody with no training he would not be able to land a touch on me. Conversely, I'd be able to score on him easily.
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Offline lixiss

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Re: random thoughts
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2023, 20:55:39 »
just what is harder to use in real life? lol. even if you don't have training, you'll still be able to hit what is right next to you with a sword or club. archery on the other hand needs serous training in order to hit your targets. yet in this game, this is the weapon that never misses

i know about crits. i was talking about real life comparisons rather than mechanics

Melee can be considered more harder, as meleing is final question between life or death. This is why all armies of past centuries attempts to not become into melee. 3-5m pike can be considered as melee weapon? Do box of halberders considered as melee? Is, roman centurions considered as melee warriors, when they are equipped with 3 throwing spears (famous pilum), and having own shorty swords as last resort weapons (which works only with shields and in line) [and generally they should be supported with slingers and/or bowmans, usually second-class supporters, often not romans]

Real life is not duels. Surely real life had duels too, but... Bows is not dueling weapon. There is no sense to make comparison, because any bowman can't do point-blank shots in real life, so any bowman in melee will run (most likely) or go into melee (if supported with *dismounted* knights). If knights not dismounted, they run away even before bowmans. Again, good armored knight - almost immune to ANY weapon, and exceptionally it immune to annoying arrow. But main power of knights is again, horse and spear. Sword - is backup weapon, exception if they did not fight against unarmored/light-armored nations (where swords or sabers are good). And yeah, knight's horse should equip "knight sword" which is longer, and other which is more suitable to fight on legs.

So, do melee harder? I think yes. From my experience, my first training when I'm doing just block, wearing wooden shield and wooden sword, drain me completely in about 10-15 seconds. Trainer just kick and kick *in shield* constantly, so just blocking is not a tactics. And I'm had no chance to make any attack at all. Surely, if you not trained, then you died immediately.

So, in that sense, shooting from bow from distance... yep, you should be qualified, to do it efficiently... but in real life, bows working by fire in volleys. Every bowman hold not so many arrows, 15-30? so they discharge in a few minutes. So there is no matter how you good in bow, there is not task to kick apple from head over target for shooting: target is opponent army lines (boxes), and so you just fire somewhere in right area, but not aiming in sense of games. Good archers should be able fire at least 3 arrows per minute. You might oppose me here with hunters, but they are not dueling: they are experienced with bow, as tool to get food, they are was naturally good in armies (no need to pay to training), and they good bowmans in all senses, but there is different tasks, so main advantage of famous English archers with their longbows (which are not better than any other) - is only what they are cheap. You recruit archers and them most likely already are trained.

What is answer to all? Best weapon is arbalest and then firearms. They are easier to use, and both can penetrate armor. (Bow arrows CANT penetrate anything what we name armor - however, there is did not mean what bows was useless - good armors was only on noble knights, and sometimes horses [without full cover]). I'm forget name of king in Europe who was died almost immediately and accidentally, because he take off helmet on battlefield. As for arbalesters there is was famous Genoese mercenaries (arbalists), who wear arbalest and shield. They used big personal shield to cover under while recharging arbalest.

There is was other interesting cases, when noble knight (again forget name) with almost superhuman powers (e.g. history practically did not know other cases), able to fight alone over army, until he did not captured (e.g. stand over >50 soldiers, and soldiers fear to go to him, and...) [Most likely big weapon and no-one can step to him, however, his hit was well known, it was fatal - but this kind man is known as exactly one over past 1000 years] {To be fair, more deep in past - less we know}

And, again, you wear best possible armor, it cost billions, it looks nicely. No one can't confuse and you most likely will survive because most likely you be captured, to get ransom. Not because this knights was so strong. No! You just equipped so anyone can distinguish, so you (as king or very noble knight) can die only by accident or own stupidness, or because your side press enemy so hard, what enemies issue internal order - fight to die, no captures! (Capturing anyone requires escort, but if you have no resources to protect own supply lines, then... so cornered animal usually fight to die, and... history know few samples, when "cornered animal" army win war, just because other side did not let them leave (France lost twice or thrice exactly in this way, while if France army do nothing - they win...)

I'm just saying what there is no better or harder here. Both weapons require lot of training, lot of power. But, they are not comparable in this sense. Famous eastern light cavalry is bowmans on horses! However, this doesn't mean what they can't put bow on back and pick spear or whatever, which kick hard, while riding. And there is another category.

---

Back to game: Grim Dawn offer mechanics over criticals (e.g. attack vs defense) for anything, like in TQ for melee: for any attack, melee or ranged, for every spell and even each DOT do it (and by so - may crit). No matter what you equip, mechanics works in same way. I think this is good, and I feel what TQ was just not finished in this sense.

One unfair thing which remains in GD is famous dual-wielding - is implemented stupidly, and game have some stupid equipment design for sure, and changes in balance (to shield / blocking), what results in same boring thing: more items is better + more items with inherent attack speed bonus => is even better. {By stupid design here I'm mean what except you rely on specific shield with specific props for you build - DW is strictly better, and this is annoying, because there is game of DPS vs surviability vs gear, and there is NO GOOD GEAR for shield, except for some stupid builds, like converting all elemental damage into physical (WHAT?!). No, there is plenty of equip which work or can be choosen, but finally, is ends in very few builds actually without much choice.} [ADD: I'm mean what GD having too many too specialized gear and this is top tier gear: e.g. you collect gear and by so, you "collect" no matter what you want or choose. And choices actually not so many.]

PS: Anyway, if I'm remember, someone important in TQ was immune to any projectiles? (I'm played always with melee + some backup ranged weapon which I'm can summon by famous `W`eapon button, not primary, not top, but having something ranged always nice. In GD same tactics for me works too [it have however even better - pistols+shield, but I'm dislike firearms in games at all, so if game allow to equip bow - I'm use bow. If game offer only firearms - I'm simple did not play. Hm... However, I'm simply did not play at all last years]). :)
« Last Edit: 01 February 2023, 21:06:57 by lixiss »

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