Author Topic: More masteries?  (Read 2489 times)

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Offline Carl_Johnson

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More masteries?
« on: 05 December 2021, 17:57:43 »
Now that new DLC with 11th mastery is out i'm curious is it possible to add (not replace) more masteries to the game.

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Offline Zardoz

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #1 on: 05 December 2021, 21:54:36 »
Why wouldn't be possible? It all depends on the developer. If they feel like it, they can add 10 new masteries in the next 10 years... not that it's going to happen but, you get my point.

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Offline Carl_Johnson

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #2 on: 06 December 2021, 01:41:33 »
I know that developers can do it. But can we, players? From what I see there isn't any mod which adds a mastery without replacing another.

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Offline Brakiros

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #3 on: 06 December 2021, 10:09:34 »
it's likely an API cap

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Offline Carl_Johnson

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #4 on: 06 December 2021, 13:26:53 »
I see. Do you think that developers could raise that cap if we ask them about it?

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Offline lixiss

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #5 on: 06 December 2021, 19:13:53 »
I see. Do you think that developers could raise that cap if we ask them about it?

This likely never happens because there is no reason. You have already designed 20 masteries, so you can't fit them all in your mod? You have real proposition/design for what you asking?

Adding more masteries, without fixing or kmplementing new game mechanics almost nonsense. In case of TQ - every thing is broken. Crits are melee-only, scaling is really hard (there is no weapon% damage, skills are always OP if you invest early or bad later), damage conversion... is also broken and almost not existent. There is lotvof space for improvements, but simply adding more masteries does't looks like needed. Monster's skill manager is way more limiting than it may be.

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Offline Zardoz

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #6 on: 07 December 2021, 13:33:41 »
^^^But do they try to fix all the problems, of which there are much, much more than the mentioned above? NOOOO! Let's instead release yet another expansion for a quick cash grab... an expansion, which i have no doubt will add a ton of new problems.

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Offline lixiss

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #7 on: 07 December 2021, 19:42:55 »
^^^But do they try to fix all the problems, of which there are much, much more than the mentioned above? NOOOO! Let's instead release yet another expansion for a quick cash grab... an expansion, which i have no doubt will add a ton of new problems.

I'm personally completely did not like TQAE balancing (do anyone remember what any health regen affixes and PC base health regen was way much lesser in TQIT? now in TQAE low level char (levels 3..30) in act 1 literally immortable just with yellows, but it never was case in TQIT). However, let be fair: TQAE technically without expansions or with - is great overall improvement, packed with expanded engine limitations, which is also good.

As for fixing things which I'm mentioned: I'm think there is not hard to fix technically, but in that case this will be completely new game with completely new experience (and there is good thing). But bad thing - things which was tested and learned more than over ~10 years - will be almost completely lost. There is just impossible to just fix this things and adjust monsters to follow changes (because no one know how they must be adjusted). There is needs real gameplay tests, however, before this - there is should be automatic "baselining" tests (simulations) (which I'm believe doesn't exists for TQ).

Anyway - there is great, what TQAE still alive. There is great game. It just might be way more better over all this time. And TQ's Act 1 is just universally the best in aesthetics over all ARPG's.

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Offline Carl_Johnson

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #8 on: 09 December 2021, 13:38:06 »
This likely never happens because there is no reason. You have already designed 20 masteries, so you can't fit them all in your mod? You have real proposition/design for what you asking?

Yep. Developers will increase masteries cap limit, I will do the rest. For myself, of course.

I would like to do something similar that Dawn of Masteries mod for Grim Dawn done.

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Offline Deathblossom

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #9 on: 09 December 2021, 19:48:03 »
The new Eternal Embers DLC gave us some new modding tools, the "on kill" / "on potion use" / "on item pick up" skill templates can be used to create some brand new mechanics.
For example I added for myself in the Spirit mastery a heal on kill spell and a spawn skeleton on kill spell. We could also imagine casting plague once again on kill (like consequences), adding explosions on kills for many spells in various masteries ...

By the way I totally agree with Carl_Johnson, if we had more mastery slots I would actually add some. First splitting Storm into Water (water + ice) and Storm (lightning + wind), then adding Light (heals, buffs, fumble), Darkness (vitality, physical, controls, teleportation) and Blood (bleeding, life leech) masteries. And I already have the concepts for about 25-30 skills per mastery.

However it is true that devs should focus on (engine) issues first.

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Offline lixiss

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Re: More masteries?
« Reply #10 on: 22 December 2021, 01:55:42 »
Sorry for delay.

# of masteries and # of skill slots in mastery is different things for sure. So, at this moment is already 10/11 masteries. I agreed, what there is limit, but there is not the end of the world. Since game intended to combine them - you already get more than enough combos which single person can personally try in reasonable time. If there is not enought - there is possible to make few versions of mod which allow different choices.

Skill manager / # of skills in mastery - there is limiting factor. In my taste - it should not be locked to around 30 (?) slots. Not for filling grid, but for implementing hidden bonuses, which might come from items. Similar concept already used in current mods, but number of hidden skills are limited, and them usually becomes generic by this reason. Monster slots also need care. Adding traits to monsters requires (rarely) redesign global passives to fit in limit. As for monster attack pattern it is even more important, as it allow i practice interesting chains, but there is not impossible do anything sensibly / not too repetitive so hard.

DoT stacking is also issue. Basically, instant damage is always win for player, but DoT can help with scaling (so you brand new AoE yet another flash freeze will not disintegrate mobs, and instead, say, let them live few another seconds which is big difference). DoTs in TQ are not used (mostly), and has so hard rules for stacking what no one exactly know and if we speak simply - it stacks only for weapon attacks and passive attack modifiers and procs except truly weapon based skill(s) (in sense where skill uses weapon damage + own bonus: throwing knife and ternion?).

Any way, this simply blocks to use, say frostburn instead of cold for true spells or you should trade, what your frostburn weapon attacks will not stacks. This on one side might add additional layer of challenge, but on another - this makes what you should choose one or another, but not both (exceptionally if possible damage are equally splitted). And this mechanically just unclear to utilize in practice except cases when player can write formulas about game mechanics just from heads, but this kind players is smaller part of mod audiency (and game is not self-explain cases enough).

This ruins possibilities. Imagine if your skills will do only 10% instant damage, and 90% as DoT over 5 seconds. Believe me - game significantly be harder. But this not implementable in a good way in TQ. But there is good scaling knob, but is not available in normal sense, as explained above.

There is exist also issues in how game spawn "proxies". Really, it is random stupid mechanism. The issue, what proxy limited what it can spawn, and if we want to provide better monster levels - there is not possible to limit choice based on PC level. There is exist few knobs, but they might work only in a way of puzzle art. {Also anyone seen what everything is heavily underleveled without PC do any farming, just at warcamp and till to end of act 2, except few creatures}. Is just broken PC progression, but this is also limited spawns issue (not flexible enough). Both can be fixed without engine modification - but titanic work needs here. Help from engine will make this things much easier.

Well. I'm bit going too deep. For me for years main thing what i'm prefer play in melee, but there is absolutely unknown why archers ignore OA/DA mechanics. I mean, as long as you kiting with backup bow, nor your OA nor your DA matters at all, as well as enemy stats. But if you melee - you are must have both to hit things. Ugh. Again, as long as you doesnt focus on phys/pierce damage - you can ignore OA, and keep it at reasonable minimum, because other damage types can't crit. So, best thing which some mod might implement (easy to do) h in favor make more choices equally well - is disable OA/DA mechanics for everyone. :) And this might work. And even be way more hardcore than it now (with fixed crit simulation).

But this kind of balance even in own free to anything mod, this things overally makes me feel creepy. Anyway, I'm feel lot of limits, but never in number of masteries. :)

PS: All of you has good reasons / samples, I'm just attempt to add few alternation. :)

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